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Angel - (My) First Impressions
- Thread starter Too Much Fun
- Start date
Agreed. That's what is so interesting, tragic and disturbing about Illyria. She's walking around in their dead friend's body. She possesses little fragments of Fred's memories. But she's not Fred. She will never be Fred.
Data's death in NEM is definitely a bit of a cop-out in the sense that the writers could have their cake and eat it, too. Kill off Data for shock value but leave the back door open to bring the character back via B-4 if they wanted to. In the case of Fred, that won't happen. She's gone. Period. No magic reset/resurrection button.
To be fair, Too Much Fun hasn't watched the episode that explains this yet.
^ACK! SPOILERS!
He stays dead. Unfortunately, his contract with Wolfram and Hart extends beyond his death.
Yes, but...
As of the last issue of "After the Fall" (I didn't stick around for S7[?]), he left appearently for good.
Sadly, we got another Cordielia appearence.
Sadly, we got another Cordielia appearence.
I was in the Buffyverse when I thought about character deaths.
More that never came back:
Xander's "friend" from the pilot (some friend, never mentioned again!)
Kendra, the vamprie slayer
Doyle ("Angel")
Halfrek
Oops. Good point. I've gone back and edited my post to add in a warning; with any luck, TMF hasn't seen my post without the edit.
I think being a vampire in "The Harvest" disqualifies him from that list.
Something that always rankled me, that he was never mentioned again. I'd love to have seen him in 'Conversations with Dead People' as was reputedly planned.
Jamie? I think you mean Jesse?
Jamie? I think you mean Jesse?
It was J-something.
The worst part about his demise to me is the way that episode ends. They've saved the day, and they're all happy, and then some really cheesy early-90s music starts to play. And the poor kid was totally forgotten.
Poor Jamie...
Jamie? I think you mean Jesse?
It was J-something.
The worst part about his demise to me is the way that episode ends. They've saved the day, and they're all happy, and then some really cheesy early-90s music starts to play. And the poor kid was totally forgotten.
Yeah, but at least Giles had the good sense to note that during that scene that they were all doomed.
Season 1 Buffy was definitely rough in places.......still a diamond in the rough. As for Conversations w/ Dead people.....I heard Tara was supposed to be in that episode and turned it down but I hadn't heard they were going to bring Jesse back....seeing as Eric Balfour was in "24" at the time I guess I'm not overly surprised the scheduling didn't work out, but that would have made for a great Xander piece.
^ Yeah, apparently, when they couldn't get Balfour back, they completely scrapped Xander's story from the episode, making it the only one that Nicholas Brendon doesn't appear in.
I love IMDB's explanation of Jesse in the Buffy FAQ: "Basically, Jesse was Xander's best bud (and Willow's friend) until he died, at which point Buffy replaced him in their lives and they never spoke of him again."
TMF, to reiterate what a few people have already mentioned, the whole Fred/Illyria thing is indeed very different from the Cordy/Jasmine storyline. I too recall thinking at first that it seemed very familiar (as does Angel himself, when he compares the two situations in "Shells"!), but it's quickly apparent that this is a whole other ballgame. I was sad to see Fred go, as I'd grown quite attached to her, but Illyria was interesting, and a great way for Amy Acker to show off her versatility as an actress.
Well, you're in the home stretch now -- only a handful of episodes to go, and they're some rollicking good ones (with the exception of "The Girl in Question", which just seems completely out of place). I've enjoyed seeing your impressions of the series, even if I don't share a number of them (Season 4 forever!
). I look forward to seeing what you think of the finale -- I thought it was awesome, myself. I know I'm not alone in that regard, but I'm sure it pissed a few fans off as well. 
This thread has reminded me of my re-watch of the show about three years ago, after I found the complete series on sale on Boxing Day. I plowed through it in less than two months, and even managed to get my dad hooked in the process! Ah, good times...
I love IMDB's explanation of Jesse in the Buffy FAQ: "Basically, Jesse was Xander's best bud (and Willow's friend) until he died, at which point Buffy replaced him in their lives and they never spoke of him again."
TMF, to reiterate what a few people have already mentioned, the whole Fred/Illyria thing is indeed very different from the Cordy/Jasmine storyline. I too recall thinking at first that it seemed very familiar (as does Angel himself, when he compares the two situations in "Shells"!), but it's quickly apparent that this is a whole other ballgame. I was sad to see Fred go, as I'd grown quite attached to her, but Illyria was interesting, and a great way for Amy Acker to show off her versatility as an actress.
Well, you're in the home stretch now -- only a handful of episodes to go, and they're some rollicking good ones (with the exception of "The Girl in Question", which just seems completely out of place). I've enjoyed seeing your impressions of the series, even if I don't share a number of them (Season 4 forever!
). I look forward to seeing what you think of the finale -- I thought it was awesome, myself. I know I'm not alone in that regard, but I'm sure it pissed a few fans off as well. This thread has reminded me of my re-watch of the show about three years ago, after I found the complete series on sale on Boxing Day. I plowed through it in less than two months, and even managed to get my dad hooked in the process! Ah, good times...
The only weird thing about "The Girl in Question" is that it's a standalone episode in the middle of a bunch of not-so-standlone episodes. I thoroughly enjoy it (and you might, too, since it brings back Andrew yet again). It's a comedic episode and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
Yes, that was my main issue with it as well. I probably would have enjoyed it more if it had come earlier in the season. As it stands, it does have some good laughs, but, as I said, it just feels very out of place, especially since it comes right between all the Fred/Illyria stuff and
the final arc involving the Circle of the Black Thorn.
I would just like to re-emphasise at this point that this is your opinion. You can't get away with stating it as outright fact because clearly there are plenty of people who think the Jasmine arc wasn't a mistake - myself among them.
Well... yeah. That's what Whedon shows do. You can't blame water for being wet.
Because they died natural, real-life non-mystical deaths, unlike almost everyone else in the show. Angel even makes this point himself - death isn't the end in their world, there's always a cheat. With Fred/Illyria, they just create the cheat in such a way that it removes any chance of a cheat, that's all.
Well, until the next cheat, that is.
See, though, I remember hearing that the plan for Illyria/Fred in season 6 was
that Illyria and Fred were going to split into two, bringing Fred back and having Amy Acker playing both roles at the same time. So there was a cheat coming, allegedly.
Interesting. I'd never heard that rumor before. If we had gotten season six, I think going down that road would have been a mistake.
Thanks for all the feedback and sensitivity about spoilers, people. It's great to see such thoughtful discussion in my little thread.
Well I figured it was a given that everything I say is just my opinion rather than something I consider an immutable fact, but if you feel this clarification is necessary, I'll go ahead and say it. I personally thought the whole Jasmine thing was a terrible idea, but I acknowledge the fact that this reaction is not universal. There are people right in this thread who said they like it...and I hope they all get their marbles back someday.
Yeah, now that I'm getting close to finishing the only Whedon series I haven't yet watched in its entirety, this seems more obvious than ever. Apparently it's a given that all beautiful love connections in the Whedonverse have to end in tragedy. I just think it's a shame sometimes that the writers are forced to adhere to this rule, because (again, in my opinion, of course), it has caused many a story line to end very limply after a strong start.
I thought the first big shocking death (Jenny Calender) was awesomely done. The one in "The Body" was excellent too, but the number of 'shocking' deaths (mystical or natural) after that is ridiculous, and quickly lost my sympathy. As far as I'm concerned, the ends of Tara, Anya, and various "Dollhouse" and "Firefly" characters were just rip-offs of the death in "Passion" that were not as effective.
The sudden death thing worked the first time, but I just got increasingly weary of it. Whedon seems so fixated on this tactic that he couldn't even leave it out of the generally comedic "Dr Horrible's Sing-Along Blog"! YEESH! The death in that was the only part of it I didn't like because once again he was just doing the same schtick again (while the rest of the piece was very original). At least we can be sure he's not going to pull this crap in "The Avengers" since there's no way the studio is going to let him kill Iron Man halfway through the movie. I wouldn't put it past him if he had complete creative control, though.
Well I figured it was a given that everything I say is just my opinion rather than something I consider an immutable fact, but if you feel this clarification is necessary, I'll go ahead and say it. I personally thought the whole Jasmine thing was a terrible idea, but I acknowledge the fact that this reaction is not universal. There are people right in this thread who said they like it...and I hope they all get their marbles back someday.
Too Much Fun said:
lvsxy808 said:
Yeah, now that I'm getting close to finishing the only Whedon series I haven't yet watched in its entirety, this seems more obvious than ever. Apparently it's a given that all beautiful love connections in the Whedonverse have to end in tragedy. I just think it's a shame sometimes that the writers are forced to adhere to this rule, because (again, in my opinion, of course
), it has caused many a story line to end very limply after a strong start.I thought the first big shocking death (Jenny Calender) was awesomely done. The one in "The Body" was excellent too, but the number of 'shocking' deaths (mystical or natural) after that is ridiculous, and quickly lost my sympathy. As far as I'm concerned, the ends of Tara, Anya, and various "Dollhouse" and "Firefly" characters were just rip-offs of the death in "Passion" that were not as effective.
The sudden death thing worked the first time, but I just got increasingly weary of it. Whedon seems so fixated on this tactic that he couldn't even leave it out of the generally comedic "Dr Horrible's Sing-Along Blog"! YEESH! The death in that was the only part of it I didn't like because once again he was just doing the same schtick again (while the rest of the piece was very original). At least we can be sure he's not going to pull this crap in "The Avengers" since there's no way the studio is going to let him kill Iron Man halfway through the movie. I wouldn't put it past him if he had complete creative control, though.
Iron Man's not a girl. I wouldn't get too attached to Thor, though.
Personally, I think that Whedon's recurring themes and tropes are no big mystery if you realise that he was big into the X-Men in the early 80s. Issues #136 and #137 of Uncanny X-Men appear to provide a template for almost every (temporarily) idyllic relationship, being the conclusion of the Dark Phoenix saga; and the ensuing addition of Kitty Pryde has been cited as a major influence on Buffy.
Oh yes, I realise all that, and I apologise if I came off as snippy. It was just that you seemed to be so very emphatic about this particular opinion that I felt a personal urge to defend the story.
I forgot to respond to this earlier, but you've kind of got this back-to-front from a production POV. The idea behind Fred/Illyria wasn't specifically to kill Fred because she needed to be killed, and then find a replacement character. The whole idea was to see what else Amy Acker could do as an actress, and to create a situation for her to stretch her acting wings, as it were. There was never an inkling that the actress should go.
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