Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador kit!
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GodThingFormerly
A Different Kind of Asshole
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
I suspect that Mr. Probert may no longer be a member of IATSE, which - if I am not mistaken although I very likely am - would make it rather difficult for CBS to purchase his Ambassador Class design for use in TNG-R. Considering how badly they cheaped out on money, time and talent with TOS-R (to say nothing of TMP-TDE) I sincerely doubt that we will see any new designs by either Probert or Rick Sternbach appear in the inevitable HDTV regurgitation.
TGT
I suspect that Mr. Probert may no longer be a member of IATSE, which - if I am not mistaken although I very likely am - would make it rather difficult for CBS to purchase his Ambassador Class design for use in TNG-R. Considering how badly they cheaped out on money, time and talent with TOS-R (to say nothing of TMP-TDE
) I sincerely doubt that we will see any new designs by either Probert or Rick Sternbach appear in the inevitable HDTV regurgitation.TGT
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
I doubt those revisions will be all that extensive, anyway. Just redoing the same shots in high-def CGI, with a few corrections (like that bit in "Darmok" where we see yellow phaser beams shooting out of the torpedo launcher
).
Although, it might be nifty, when it comes time to do "Trials and Tribble-ations", to fold in some of the new footage from "The Trouble With Tribbles". (Personally, I think after the bar fight, when they came back from commercials, it should've opened up with Kirk's log entry about the incident before cutting back to Sisko, but that's just the frustrated scriptwriter in me, I s'pose).
I doubt those revisions will be all that extensive, anyway. Just redoing the same shots in high-def CGI, with a few corrections (like that bit in "Darmok" where we see yellow phaser beams shooting out of the torpedo launcher
).Although, it might be nifty, when it comes time to do "Trials and Tribble-ations", to fold in some of the new footage from "The Trouble With Tribbles". (Personally, I think after the bar fight, when they came back from commercials, it should've opened up with Kirk's log entry about the incident before cutting back to Sisko, but that's just the frustrated scriptwriter in me, I s'pose).
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
And if there are revisions to the ship designs, those will probably be handled by the CGI modelers and animators, without much involvement by us illustrator/designer types. Changing times.
Rick
www.spacemodelsystems.com
The God Thing said:
I suspect that Mr. Probert may no longer be a member of IATSE, which - if I am not mistaken although I very likely am - would make it rather difficult for CBS to purchase his Ambassador Class design for use in TNG-R. Considering how badly they cheaped out on money, time and talent with TOS-R (to say nothing of TMP-TDE
TGT
And if there are revisions to the ship designs, those will probably be handled by the CGI modelers and animators, without much involvement by us illustrator/designer types. Changing times.
Rick
www.spacemodelsystems.com
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
Damn shame, if you ask me...
Rick Sternbach said:
The God Thing said:
I suspect that Mr. Probert may no longer be a member of IATSE, which - if I am not mistaken although I very likely am - would make it rather difficult for CBS to purchase his Ambassador Class design for use in TNG-R. Considering how badly they cheaped out on money, time and talent with TOS-R (to say nothing of TMP-TDE
TGT
And if there are revisions to the ship designs, those will probably be handled by the CGI modelers and animators, without much involvement by us illustrator/designer types. Changing times.
Rick
www.spacemodelsystems.com
Damn shame, if you ask me...
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
As a CGI artist, allow me to express how utterly insulting to us you and hutt are being.
Rick and Andrew Probert are both amazing designers, which goes without saying, but I posit that there are amazing designers in the CG-world as well. I am not one of them of course (being a lighting artist primarily), but that's not the point.
As a CGI artist, allow me to express how utterly insulting to us you and hutt are being.
Rick and Andrew Probert are both amazing designers, which goes without saying, but I posit that there are amazing designers in the CG-world as well. I am not one of them of course (being a lighting artist primarily), but that's not the point.
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
Different tools, is all. There are more and less talented, more and less skilled designers and artists working in every medium.
Different tools, is all. There are more and less talented, more and less skilled designers and artists working in every medium.
GodThingFormerly
A Different Kind of Asshole
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
It is interesting you should mention that, as Probert noted what he felt was the problem with modern CG-trained designers and artists in response to a remarkably incisive post made by Zero Hour (then michiel) in this thread from May, 2006.
TGT
It is interesting you should mention that, as Probert noted what he felt was the problem with modern CG-trained designers and artists in response to a remarkably incisive post made by Zero Hour (then michiel) in this thread from May, 2006.
TGT
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
I don't know what it's like in other schools, but I know that the philosophy at my classes was to teach the art in computer art, because the tools change so dramatically. I will admit, I'm more comfortable working in 3d (to create concepts) than on pencil and paper, but that's the nature of my own biases.
And there were bad designs back during the hey-day of model-work as well. The ridiculously over-greebled Imperial Star Destroyer, anyone? There's talent, and then there's talent, just like in any generation. Mr. Probert and Mr. Sternbach, are of course, the latter.
I don't know what it's like in other schools, but I know that the philosophy at my classes was to teach the art in computer art, because the tools change so dramatically. I will admit, I'm more comfortable working in 3d (to create concepts) than on pencil and paper, but that's the nature of my own biases.
And there were bad designs back during the hey-day of model-work as well. The ridiculously over-greebled Imperial Star Destroyer, anyone? There's talent, and then there's talent, just like in any generation. Mr. Probert and Mr. Sternbach, are of course, the latter.
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
I didn't mean to dis any CG artists, since I definitely know there are lots of good ones out there. My beef lies with the system that is relying more on the CG houses as a one-stop-shop for designs as well as finished effects. This isn't entirely new; we saw the beginnings of it on ST:TMP as Bob Abel tried to shove whole set and prop designs on us when we were the film's art department. Harold Michelson, whatever you may think of him based on that film, was correctly p.o'ed at this behavior and said so. On TNG/DS9/Voy, we used a number of highly qualified FX houses. The modelers and animators were terrific, but the designs originated with us in the studio. Not as much any more, hence my comment about the changing times. Similar things are happening to storyboarding, where entire companies devoted to "pre-viz" are boarding and animating films, squeezing out the traditional (and even CG-savvy) illustrators. There are film/TV union regulations covering all of this, not that I think they're terribly effective, but that, as they say, is another story.
Rick
www.spacemodesystems.com
Manticore said:
As a CGI artist, allow me to express how utterly insulting to us you and hutt are being.
Rick and Andrew Probert are both amazing designers, which goes without saying, but I posit that there are amazing designers in the CG-world as well. I am not one of them of course (being a lighting artist primarily), but that's not the point.
I didn't mean to dis any CG artists, since I definitely know there are lots of good ones out there. My beef lies with the system that is relying more on the CG houses as a one-stop-shop for designs as well as finished effects. This isn't entirely new; we saw the beginnings of it on ST:TMP as Bob Abel tried to shove whole set and prop designs on us when we were the film's art department. Harold Michelson, whatever you may think of him based on that film, was correctly p.o'ed at this behavior and said so. On TNG/DS9/Voy, we used a number of highly qualified FX houses. The modelers and animators were terrific, but the designs originated with us in the studio. Not as much any more, hence my comment about the changing times. Similar things are happening to storyboarding, where entire companies devoted to "pre-viz" are boarding and animating films, squeezing out the traditional (and even CG-savvy) illustrators. There are film/TV union regulations covering all of this, not that I think they're terribly effective, but that, as they say, is another story.
Rick
www.spacemodesystems.com
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
I'm tempted to advise you to draw yourself a cookie and suck it up, but that wouldn't be respectful of your point that CG artists are artists too. My point is that it's depressing that accomplished artists who know how to design a look that is integrated, self-consistent, and makes sense are being overlooked in favor of comparative "pip squeaks" who lack that holistic sense of how things work together. I bet one or two of those pip squeaks will go on to develop their own style and sense of integrated systems and when they do, I'd like to see them get exactly the same respect and admiration folks like Probert and Sternbach have earned, rather than be swept away in a tide of nameless artists who are treated like technicians. I like to follow the work of talented writers, composers, and artists who make my favorite movies what they are.
Manticore said:
As a CGI artist, allow me to express how utterly insulting to us you and hutt are being.
I'm tempted to advise you to draw yourself a cookie and suck it up, but that wouldn't be respectful of your point that CG artists are artists too. My point is that it's depressing that accomplished artists who know how to design a look that is integrated, self-consistent, and makes sense are being overlooked in favor of comparative "pip squeaks" who lack that holistic sense of how things work together. I bet one or two of those pip squeaks will go on to develop their own style and sense of integrated systems and when they do, I'd like to see them get exactly the same respect and admiration folks like Probert and Sternbach have earned, rather than be swept away in a tide of nameless artists who are treated like technicians. I like to follow the work of talented writers, composers, and artists who make my favorite movies what they are.
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
I never thought that you were (you're too awesome for that.
)
I will agree that CGI and ship designer require somewhat different skillsets. I suck at coming up with a ship design. I can improve a design (greatly in at least one case, IMO at least), but coming up with the initial basis for it is rather beyond me. But there are CGI artists who have that ability. I guess I'm just a little annoyed by the constant insinuation from some people that CGI artists are somehow not as talented as other artists.
As for Mssrs. Sternbach and Probert working on Trek XI and any future remastering projects, I agree with you that it's a shame that they aren't. They're both talented artists who have greatly improved Trek through their work (and they're both class acts to boot, to judge by their participation on this forum so far
).
Rick Sternbach said:
Manticore said:
As a CGI artist, allow me to express how utterly insulting to us you and hutt are being.
Rick and Andrew Probert are both amazing designers, which goes without saying, but I posit that there are amazing designers in the CG-world as well. I am not one of them of course (being a lighting artist primarily), but that's not the point.
I didn't mean to dis any CG artists, since I definitely know there are lots of good ones out there. My beef lies with the system that is relying more on the CG houses as a one-stop-shop for designs as well as finished effects. This isn't entirely new; we saw the beginnings of it on ST:TMP as Bob Abel tried to shove whole set and prop designs on us when we were the film's art department. Harold Michelson, whatever you may think of him based on that film, was correctly p.o'ed at this behavior and said so. On TNG/DS9/Voy, we used a number of highly qualified FX houses. The modelers and animators were terrific, but the designs originated with us in the studio. Not as much any more, hence my comment about the changing times. Similar things are happening to storyboarding, where entire companies devoted to "pre-viz" are boarding and animating films, squeezing out the traditional (and even CG-savvy) illustrators. There are film/TV union regulations covering all of this, not that I think they're terribly effective, but that, as they say, is another story.
I never thought that you were (you're too awesome for that.
)I will agree that CGI and ship designer require somewhat different skillsets. I suck at coming up with a ship design. I can improve a design (greatly in at least one case, IMO at least
), but coming up with the initial basis for it is rather beyond me. But there are CGI artists who have that ability. I guess I'm just a little annoyed by the constant insinuation from some people that CGI artists are somehow not as talented as other artists.As for Mssrs. Sternbach and Probert working on Trek XI and any future remastering projects, I agree with you that it's a shame that they aren't. They're both talented artists who have greatly improved Trek through their work (and they're both class acts to boot, to judge by their participation on this forum so far
).Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
If you want to see just how talented some CG artists are, you only need look at the work of Fred Gambino. I can't say he's a close personal friend, but we do get to yak now and then on the Wolfpack email list, and I can say that he understands both the CG tools and the traditional ones, and has a great eye for composition. Check out
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fredgamb/
Rick
www.spacemodelsystems.com
Not meaning to hijack the thread; will go back to my cave now.
If you want to see just how talented some CG artists are, you only need look at the work of Fred Gambino. I can't say he's a close personal friend, but we do get to yak now and then on the Wolfpack email list, and I can say that he understands both the CG tools and the traditional ones, and has a great eye for composition. Check out
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fredgamb/
Rick
www.spacemodelsystems.com
Not meaning to hijack the thread; will go back to my cave now.
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
I, for one, despise them. That's what's wrong with them.
A little here and there is okay, but I find that they've become overused, and they don't make much practical sense on a starship built by a race that's been space-faring for thousands of years--though in that regard, I'm in the Matt Jeffries school of thought. I also think that they're a cheap way of establishing scale and visual interest on a ship.
Take a look at the E-nil from the movies (wow, it's weird discussing the ship with the designer right here...). For the most part, she looks big. And yet, she has remarkably few greebles, at least of the ISD type. And then, compare the relative attractiveness of the 6-footer E-D and the 4-footer (again...designer right here; I'm starting to sound like a brown-noser!) The 6-footer is much more attractive, IMO, and not just because Jein completely screwed up the shape of the secondary hull. The 4-footer has this weird looking embossed patter on the hulls that just breaks of the lines of the E-D.
So...about that Ambassador! (Sorry Mr. Probert to take this off-topic).
ETA: Thanks Rick for the link. That guy is amazing.
I, for one, despise them. That's what's wrong with them.
A little here and there is okay, but I find that they've become overused, and they don't make much practical sense on a starship built by a race that's been space-faring for thousands of years--though in that regard, I'm in the Matt Jeffries school of thought. I also think that they're a cheap way of establishing scale and visual interest on a ship.
Take a look at the E-nil from the movies (wow, it's weird discussing the ship with the designer right here...). For the most part, she looks big. And yet, she has remarkably few greebles, at least of the ISD type. And then, compare the relative attractiveness of the 6-footer E-D and the 4-footer (again...designer right here; I'm starting to sound like a brown-noser!) The 6-footer is much more attractive, IMO, and not just because Jein completely screwed up the shape of the secondary hull. The 4-footer has this weird looking embossed patter on the hulls that just breaks of the lines of the E-D.
So...about that Ambassador! (Sorry Mr. Probert to take this off-topic).
ETA: Thanks Rick for the link. That guy is amazing.
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
The fact he overlooked was that the ship is so large that you'd have to be a half mile away to view the whole thing comfortably. If you look at an aircraft carrier from that distance, it's hull also looks smooth yet people don't have problems photographing them. That stupid plating plastered over the 4-footer scales out to a thickness of over 2 feet or more.
Andrew-
It's my understanding that the effects director's apparent inability to create a sense of scale from something so smooth, is responsible for that (a pet peeve of mine) and talked Berman into spending more money for a greebled version.
The fact he overlooked was that the ship is so large that you'd have to be a half mile away to view the whole thing comfortably. If you look at an aircraft carrier from that distance, it's hull also looks smooth yet people don't have problems photographing them. That stupid plating plastered over the 4-footer scales out to a thickness of over 2 feet or more.
No problem... you guys gotta chat about something while I continue to wrestle with this thing.
Andrew-
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
I didn't notice that till I read this site (for some reason, Probert's site only includes the most recent update).
Between Probert's design, Vektor's USS Grandeur design, and the Dawnstar-class starship, I can't pick the most suitable explorer ship that's only a step down from the Galaxy-class starship!
In the meantime, I'm waiting for a fan to pick on Probert's ship and add, as a "refit": a torp launcher above the aft shuttlebay, another one or two below the deflector dish (Enterprise-E), and phaser strips atop the warp nacelles (USS Venture).
I didn't notice that till I read this site (for some reason, Probert's site only includes the most recent update).
Between Probert's design, Vektor's USS Grandeur design, and the Dawnstar-class starship, I can't pick the most suitable explorer ship that's only a step down from the Galaxy-class starship!
In the meantime, I'm waiting for a fan to pick on Probert's ship and add, as a "refit": a torp launcher above the aft shuttlebay, another one or two below the deflector dish (Enterprise-E), and phaser strips atop the warp nacelles (USS Venture).
Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki
^It very much looks like it was. The deflector area in particular is the same.
Probert, fantastic work. The design is really wonderful. And there will be orthographic renders, you said, for those who might want to build their own version? :thumbsup:
^It very much looks like it was. The deflector area in particular is the same.
Probert, fantastic work. The design is really wonderful. And there will be orthographic renders, you said, for those who might want to build their own version?
:thumbsup:- Status