Andrew Probert and Rick Sternbach: The New Enterprise

[EJD1984]

Personally I just don't think they're a huge/"out-of-proportion" as a lot of people think. I still believe that there is a level of p.o.v. distortion happening.

Though it also could just take some getting used to, and seeing the ship in motion on screen.

I do recall how some fans had a knee-jerk reaction when the Enterprise D was first shown, and how "out of proportion" that ship first appeared. I thought it looked like "melted art-deco", but after a while that faded, and I now love the design.

 

[Vance]

I do recall how some fans had a knee-jerk reaction when the Enterprise D was first shown, and how "out of proportion" that ship first appeared. I thought it looked like "melted art-deco", but after a while that faded, and I now love the design.

Nah, the Enterprise-D still looks like a squished fish to me.

Interestingly, though, I've noticed how it's proportions match a lot to the Baton Rouge...

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I do recall how some fans had a knee-jerk reaction when the Enterprise D was first shown, and how "out of proportion" that ship first appeared. I thought it looked like "melted art-deco", but after a while that faded, and I now love the design.

Well, that's a totally different matter, and the two comparisons are totally unrelated.

See, the 1701-D WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THE SAME SHIP! It wasn't supposed to be the 1701 we'd seen in the original show, or the "refit" we saw in TMP.

What we see with this "new" ship is exactly that. A NEW SHIP. But it's being foisted on us as though it's the original.

If this was being presented as, say just for example, a later ship design (maybe even in the TNG-era) which paid homage to the TOS ship design... I'd have no trouble with what's being presented. Because it would be REASONABLE... and because it has enough in common with the TOS-era ship design to be vaguely recognizable.

In that light, I'd probably really appreciate it, actually.

The problem, again, is that a lot of folks (you included, apparently) are expecting it to be more like the TOS ship (particularly in relation to the ship's proportions) than it really is. Or (as is seen in the "Hobbytalk" image) more like the 1701-E, proportionately.

For all the hell that some folks gave Gabe Koerner over his "redesign," at the very least he kept the general proportions. And as he "tweaked" his texturing and detailing, it looked better and better, didn't it? It never looked like the TOS ship, but I could easily have accepted it as being another sister-ship to the TOS ship we knew (maybe even one of the ships in "The Ultimate Computer?")

That's the huge problem with this new ship. It's like the TOS ship only insofar as it has the broad strokes being vaguely similar... a round dish two cylindrical-ish nacelles, and a secondary hull underneath, connecting the other elements, with a dish antenna on the front. But that's the same as the 1701-B, the 1701-C, the 1701-D, and the 1701-E... and this new ship has no more in common with the 1701-naught than it has with any of those. It's simply a NEW DESIGN... without really capturing the proportions, shapes, or "feel" of the original.

It looks more like one of the sketches of the 1701 I might have made in the first grade (back in the 1970s when all we had was after-school reruns!) than it does like a revisitation of the classic design by anyone really caring to try to match it in any reasonable way.

The proportions are simply WRONG. I'm sorry you seem not to recognize that... not wanting to be too brusque here but honestly, you seem too dedicated to denying the differences, even when it's demonstrated in technical terms, to believe that you're reacting or perceiving in an unbiased fashion.

But... if you really think that the design you've been presented is "wrong"... do a quick-and-dirty 3D model and play with your "virtual camera" settings and try to replicate the on-screen shots. It's not hard to do...

 

[EJD1984]

Well, that's a totally different matter, and the two comparisons are totally unrelated.

See, the 1701-D WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THE SAME SHIP! It wasn't supposed to be the 1701 we'd seen in the original show, or the "refit" we saw in TMP.

The problem, again, is that a lot of folks (you included, apparently) are expecting it to be more like the TOS ship (particularly in relation to the ship's proportions) than it really is. Or (as is seen in the "Hobbytalk" image) more like the 1701-E, proportionately.

I'm sorry you seem not to recognize that... not wanting to be too brusque here but honestly, you seem too dedicated to denying the differences, even when it's demonstrated in technical terms, to believe that you're reacting or perceiving in an unbiased fashion.

But... if you really think that the design you've been presented is "wrong"... do a quick-and-dirty 3D model and play with your "virtual camera" settings and try to replicate the on-screen shots. It's not hard to do...

Boy, who put a burr under your saddle?!

So I take it I cannot offer a different, personal opinion (and be respected for it), and I should just follow the herd!?

The reason why I brought up the -D was not to compare it the TOS E, but to illustrate how a a different/radical design approach can cause extreme reactions & hesitations (I see this all the time at work)

I would try to put together a 3D model, based on my own personal assumptions, but with work, holidays, family.........etc I have very precious time to delve into as in-depth as I'd like to. Though I'm confidant that someone is working on it as I type.

PS - I can get extremely technical when it comes to the engineering of Trek.
LINK1
LINK2

 

[ancient]

I do recall how some fans had a knee-jerk reaction when the Enterprise D was first shown, and how "out of proportion" that ship first appeared. I thought it looked like "melted art-deco", but after a while that faded, and I now love the design.

Well, that's a totally different matter, and the two comparisons are totally unrelated.

See, the 1701-D WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THE SAME SHIP! It wasn't supposed to be the 1701 we'd seen in the original show, or the "refit" we saw in TMP.

What we see with this "new" ship is exactly that. A NEW SHIP. But it's being foisted on us as though it's the original.

Well, if Orci is to be believed, there is some 'in universe' reason for the ship to look different. And be built in Iowa. And be brand new when kirk is an adult. And for April and Pike apparently never going on any 5-year missions (maybe).

Though I don't think it would've killed them to not screw with the proportions so much.

If this was being presented as, say just for example, a later ship design (maybe even in the TNG-era) which paid homage to the TOS ship design... I'd have no trouble with what's being presented. Because it would be REASONABLE... and because it has enough in common with the TOS-era ship design to be vaguely recognizable.

In that light, I'd probably really appreciate it, actually.

I didn't even like it on its own merits at first, but after doin these drawings I'm liking it more.

The problem, again, is that a lot of folks (you included, apparently) are expecting it to be more like the TOS ship (particularly in relation to the ship's proportions) than it really is. Or (as is seen in the "Hobbytalk" image) more like the 1701-E, proportionately.

I wonder if that old thread I started in the STXI forum is still around. The one where we proved, with my scale model and Vector's CGI version, that even with the maximum possible camera distortion (a cropped wide-angle that was almost an ortho), the front of the nacelles on the TOS ship were about half the size of the ones in the teaser trailer.

The proportions are simply WRONG. I'm sorry you seem not to recognize that... not wanting to be too brusque here but honestly, you seem too dedicated to denying the differences, even when it's demonstrated in technical terms, to believe that you're reacting or perceiving in an unbiased fashion.

But... if you really think that the design you've been presented is "wrong"... do a quick-and-dirty 3D model and play with your "virtual camera" settings and try to replicate the on-screen shots. It's not hard to do...

I think we should get Vektor in here again.

 

[ancient]

Found it. http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=44309

At the time, I thought that some of those ship proportions might be off, but it seems to match the new pics. If you look through the thread, Vektor's images are on there someplace. The nacelles are much thicker, I have no doubt.

EDIT: Here are Vektor's images (from pg 4 of that thread):

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=1297635&postcount=80

EDIT AGAIN: Hahahaha, that was also the thread where Debush made his debute. Man, those were some crazy days. I'm nostalgic.

 

[Praetor]

I do recall how some fans had a knee-jerk reaction when the Enterprise D was first shown, and how "out of proportion" that ship first appeared. I thought it looked like "melted art-deco", but after a while that faded, and I now love the design.

Well, that's a totally different matter, and the two comparisons are totally unrelated.

See, the 1701-D WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THE SAME SHIP! It wasn't supposed to be the 1701 we'd seen in the original show, or the "refit" we saw in TMP.

What we see with this "new" ship is exactly that. A NEW SHIP. But it's being foisted on us as though it's the original.

Well, if Orci is to be believed, there is some 'in universe' reason for the ship to look different. And be built in Iowa. And be brand new when kirk is an adult. And for April and Pike apparently never going on any 5-year missions (maybe).

I still think the Kelvin attack somehow pushes Starfleet R&D into overdrive so by the time the Enterprise is launched in the altered timeline (whenever that might be) the E is at a 2270-2275ish original timeline level of tech... so essentially as advanced as the refit E, only built with older techniques, so it's not *quite* the same.

Believe my theory, dammit!

 

[ancient]

Well, that's a totally different matter, and the two comparisons are totally unrelated.

See, the 1701-D WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THE SAME SHIP! It wasn't supposed to be the 1701 we'd seen in the original show, or the "refit" we saw in TMP.

What we see with this "new" ship is exactly that. A NEW SHIP. But it's being foisted on us as though it's the original.

Well, if Orci is to be believed, there is some 'in universe' reason for the ship to look different. And be built in Iowa. And be brand new when kirk is an adult. And for April and Pike apparently never going on any 5-year missions (maybe).

I still think the Kelvin attack somehow pushes Starfleet R&D into overdrive so by the time the Enterprise is launched in the altered timeline (whenever that might be) the E is at a 2270-2275ish original timeline level of tech... so essentially as advanced as the refit E, only built with older techniques, so it's not *quite* the same.

Believe my theory, dammit!

Anything Nero does is going to screw up the timeline. Maybe the original design head for the Connie project was on the Kelvin when it gets blown up.

There is also the fleet of ships that Nero destroys at Vulcan. Maybe the loss of a large number of starfleet people helps explain how Kirk got promoted so fast.

...Nero (the bad-guy) is like the self-insert character of Abrams, rewriting trek history.

 

[ancient]

Ok, and here is my ship compared to a wideshot from the trailer.

The ship from the trailer is not orthographic, and is at a slight angle, but it's fairly close to orthographic.


Man, that's a much bigger saucer, even if they have the exact same saucer thickness, the diameter looks way larger. And those nacelles are closer to the camera but they still look closer to the centerline than the original ship's.

EDIT:
I found two shots that are pretty similar:

 

[EJD1984]

I just did this quick little overlay from the trailer.

In this shot, the nacelles look to have a only slightly larger O.D. (when compared to the TOS), when referencing the saucer thickness - Not couting the lower "Pontiac Ram-Air scoop". - All in my little opinion.

*I'm not trying to be overtly pushy, just showing what I see. If I'm wrong about all of this............I'm sorry

 

[ancient]

I wouldn't say you're being pushy, but maybe a bit obtuse. That picture shows an extreme close-up of the saucer with the nacelles trailing in the background. It's probably one of the worst shots you could pick to figure out the actual size relation. Unless you post a comparison shot of the TOS ship from the same angle and 'distance'.

What did you think of Vektor and my images in the thread I linked? And any of a dozen other comparison shots that seem to imply bigger nacelle diameters? If you want to discuss the topic in a good and constructive way you have to respond to what the other guy is saying a little, otherwise it seems like you're just ignoring anything that doesn't fit your POV.

Sorry if that seemed harsh, I'm not assuming you're doing it on purpose, but it does make for a pretty frustrating conversation on my end. I love these debates as long as I'm not talking to a wall. And if you are wrong then it's no big deal, it's all guesswork. You don't have to be sorry for it, since you didn't hurt anyone.

 

[Timo]

In this case, we have a ship that is far more different from the TOS ship than the TMP ship was, yet is supposed to be "the SAME ship." It doesn't just change "fine details," it changes overall proportions.

I don't really get this argument. The TMP ship was supposed to be the same as the TOS one, but it changed all of the overall proportions. Everything was changed, with absolutely no respect to any of the original sizes and shapes. After the fact, some sort of a halfhearted rationalization was attempted that this was an "almost" totally new ship that was the result of a Thesean refit.

So how is the STXI ship supposed to be a different case? Again, it changes every design feature, for the very same reason: because it looks cool to the contemporary designers, and supposedly to the contemporary audiences as well. So far, we don't know if an attempt will be made to reconcile this with the TOS or TMP designs, but such an attempt could hardly be less successful than in the TMP case.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EJD1984]

What did you think of Vektor and my images in the thread I linked? And any of a dozen other comparison shots that seem to imply bigger nacelle diameters?

I had forgotten about the Vektor images, and originally I was working under the assumption (and hope) that the initial teaser was purposely distorted, throwing some of proportions off.

Where I was thinking in reference to the diameter is the actual bussard collector dome may be only some what larger in size & shape , and the extra diameter size is coming from the lower scoop and upper "blue light hump"

I was thinking that actual "core" dia running to the back of the engine may have been similar in size (about 10% more than TOS), with the extra "fins & glitz" added to the outside.

 

[ancient]

In this case, we have a ship that is far more different from the TOS ship than the TMP ship was, yet is supposed to be "the SAME ship." It doesn't just change "fine details," it changes overall proportions.

I don't really get this argument. The TMP ship was supposed to be the same as the TOS one, but it changed all of the overall proportions. Everything was changed, with absolutely no respect to any of the original sizes and shapes. After the fact, some sort of a halfhearted rationalization was attempted that this was an "almost" totally new ship that was the result of a Thesean refit.

So how is the STXI ship supposed to be a different case? Again, it changes every design feature, for the very same reason: because it looks cool to the contemporary designers, and supposedly to the contemporary audiences as well. So far, we don't know if an attempt will be made to reconcile this with the TOS or TMP designs, but such an attempt could hardly be less successful than in the TMP case.

Timo Saloniemi

I agree that it's not really a big deal. From a story-telling POV the Enterprise is a prop that helps tell the story. This time they're telling the story with a different prop.

I don't see Trek as a static painting, it's a story. A story that can be told any number of ways.

What did you think of Vektor and my images in the thread I linked? And any of a dozen other comparison shots that seem to imply bigger nacelle diameters?

I had forgotten about the Vektor images, and originally I was working under the assumption (and hope) that the initial teaser was purposely distorted, throwing some of proportions off.

Where I was thinking in reference to the diameter is the actual bussard collector dome may be only some what larger in size & shape , and the extra diameter size is coming from the lower scoop and upper "blue light hump"

I was thinking that actual "core" dia running to the back of the engine may have been similar in size (about 10% more than TOS), with the extra "fins & glitz" added to the outside.

The diagrams I drew show the aft ends of the nacelle at the same size as the originals, it's only the front that bulbs out. I'm not sure we actually disagree on anything.

 

[EJD1984]

I'm not sure we actually disagree on anything.

True, I think we're kind of converging on the whole. Though the one thing I've noticed about this design (and movie), is the overall minimalist approach to windows on the ship(s)

Though, I've got a little voice saying to me that this all could be for naught (or did I forget to take my meds today..............lol ).

With Abrams track record for "last minute, out of left field" storytelling, plus the talk of a possible alternate/corrupted time line, we could be in for a big surprise regarding the E at the end of the film.

 

[Vance]

Seems pretty simple to me... Spock brings "Next-Gen" technology back to the TOS time period in order to fight Nero. The "new" Enterprise really isn't the TOS Enterprise, it's an alternate-dimension Enterprise built with the 'new' technology from Spock...

 

[Ronald Held]

It wouldn't have "killed' them to leave the exterior of the ship the way it was.

 

[EJD1984]

I think this may explain a few things with the look of the new Enterrpise:

New Bob Orci Interview - LINK

"Anthony: Does the time travel explain why the Enterprise looks different and why it is being built in Riverside Iowa?

Bob: Yes, and yes."



*Did we possibly guess right?

Though, I've got a little voice saying to me that this all could be for naught.

With Abrams track record for "last minute, out of left field" storytelling, plus the talk of a possible alternate/corrupted time line, we could be in for a big surprise regarding the E at the end of the film.

Seems pretty simple to me... Spock brings "Next-Gen" technology back to the TOS time period in order to fight Nero. The "new" Enterprise really isn't the TOS Enterprise, it's an alternate-dimension Enterprise built with the 'new' technology from Spock...

 

[Santaman]

In this case, we have a ship that is far more different from the TOS ship than the TMP ship was, yet is supposed to be "the SAME ship." It doesn't just change "fine details," it changes overall proportions.

I don't really get this argument. The TMP ship was supposed to be the same as the TOS one, but it changed all of the overall proportions. Everything was changed, with absolutely no respect to any of the original sizes and shapes. After the fact, some sort of a halfhearted rationalization was attempted that this was an "almost" totally new ship that was the result of a Thesean refit.

So how is the STXI ship supposed to be a different case? Again, it changes every design feature, for the very same reason: because it looks cool to the contemporary designers, and supposedly to the contemporary audiences as well. So far, we don't know if an attempt will be made to reconcile this with the TOS or TMP designs, but such an attempt could hardly be less successful than in the TMP case.

Timo Saloniemi

Sorry to say but the TMP ship is far more alike then the Rebootprise, the nacelle pylons follow a similar V shape and not the stupid O leg version of the Rebootprise, also the nacelles are proportonally placed out about as wide, they kept the indent on the underside of the saucer, the ships looks to be as tall as the TOS ship and is not like a squated toad like the Rebootprise also the shape of the neck is far more similar and the deflector array isn't looking like its an erect dog penis, also and foremost, the TMP refit is gorgeous while the Rebootprise isn't IMSVFNSHO

 

[Captain Robert April]

Just to clarify the matter...