Spoilers Andor season one

[Jedi Marso]

Who would have guessed Mon Mothma was married to a social climbing putz who invites Sly Moore to dinner? What an ASSHOLE!

Yah- who seats their wife at the 'boring' end of the table? Only an Imperial-level douche-kebab.

 

[Sci]

This is what makes it so good. As I said, when you can substitute everything substantial in this story for contempoary props / settings and it still works, you are writing on the next level. SW has had enough Disney Princesses and kiddy bombs.This shit is good for the franchise.

The Mandalorian hits the 8-year old chord in me that saw SW for the first time, and the 12-year old that saw ESB. Andor hits the adult SW chord for me now that I'm in my 50's and have watched shows like SEAL Team and Justified. There's room for it all.

Well, ultimately this is an area where I don't know either of us can rationally argue beyond this point. We're agreeing that the same things are happening, but we're assigning different values to them. For me, when you can substitute everything substantial in this story for contemporary props/setting and it still works, that's a bad thing; it means this isn't really Star Wars anymore, and it's lost the thing that makes Star Wars a distinct and special narrative rather than just another self-serious space opera for guys in their 30s and 40s who keep trying to make the thing they loved as kids be something that's for them instead of for modern kids.

 

[Disco]

I do believe that very same site was used in the opening scene of Rob Roy, with Liam Neeson. Check it out.

I have but not recently. I was walking in the areas last year though and saw the sets.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Well, ultimately this is an area where I don't know either of us can rationally argue beyond this point. We're agreeing that the same things are happening, but we're assigning different values to them. For me, when you can substitute everything substantial in this story for contemporary props/setting and it still works, that's a bad thing; it means this isn't really Star Wars anymore, and it's lost the thing that makes Star Wars a distinct and special narrative rather than just another self-serious space opera for guys in their 30s and 40s who keep trying to make the thing they loved as kids be something that's for them instead of for modern kids.

There's room for it all. Just like the people who adore Disco while it makes me puke. Don't begrudge others their thing. Disco fans can have it. I want to have Andor- I'm digging it, but I will say that it is NOT for kids.

 

[Reverend]

One detail that's been nagging at the back of my mind: Cassian asking Luthen what's powering his ship. I'm not sure if it's just because Fondor Haulcraft don't usually have hyperdrives, or because this one made the jump calculations shockingly fast.
Either way, between that, the kinds of objects Luthen trades in, and the rather "exotic" weaponry we saw the custom Haulcraft use in the trailer makes me think that as I previously speculated; he does indeed have a kyber crystal powering that ship!

I mean, obviously you can have adult-focused Star Wars stories, because that's what's happening. But I would argue that when you do that, you take away the thing that probably defines Star Wars the most and makes it special -- I'm not aware of any other major space opera that's designed for children. And the story you end up with ends up feeling itself more like a generic adult political space opera -- Andor feels very much like The Expanse. So you end up with a franchise that feels less special, and an installment that feels generic.

Which is not to say that this can't be executed well. It can. But there's a point where it just feels... pointless.

A secondary thing is just that I'm tired of adults trying to appropriate children's adventure stories for themselves. Like the kids have settings of their own that don't belong to us.

I don't disagree with the overall sentiment; Star Wars should always be accessible to kids and stick to certain core ideals, but I don't think this show is going out of bounds. It's certainly stepping right up to the line, maybe even leaning over it a little, but not over it.
Personally I appreciate the variety. Star Wars has always had a strong socio-political dimension, so it's appropriate that this show gets a chance to focus in and explore that in some depth rather than just coast past it as the movies were always forced to do. Show what an Empire really looks like from within and what it does to people; both from the bottom and up at the top. And also show what it actually takes to fight one.
This is information I think kids may need sooner rather than later, and adults could certainly do with being reminded of.

 

[Crazyewok]

Who would have guessed Mon Mothma was married to a social climbing putz who invites Sly Moore to dinner? What an ASSHOLE!

Yah- who seats their wife at the 'boring' end of the table? Only an Imperial-level douche-kebab.

Well everyone makes mistakes. Mon mothmas was marrying a wanker.

Well, ultimately this is an area where I don't know either of us can rationally argue beyond this point. We're agreeing that the same things are happening, but we're assigning different values to them. For me, when you can substitute everything substantial in this story for contemporary props/setting and it still works, that's a bad thing; it means this isn't really Star Wars anymore, and it's lost the thing that makes Star Wars a distinct and special narrative rather than just another self-serious space opera for guys in their 30s and 40s who keep trying to make the thing they loved as kids be something that's for them instead of for modern kids.

Kids can then go watch the starwars shows for them can they? They are still on disney + and still being made for them.

Its a big franchise that has room for everyone.

Dont like this flavour of starwars dont watch. Like I dont watch STD but will watch picard and strange new worlds. But I dont stink up the discovery forum complaining about it or telling its fans its not starwars.

 

[fireproof78]

Again, it's not a matter of what they can "handle." My critique isn't based on the idea that Andor is "too much" for kids. But, like, look at this latest episode: the major stakes are, members of the rebel cell don't trust Cassian; ISB agents having intra-office feuds over jurisdiction over crime investigations; Rael needs funding from Mon Motha but she's not sure how to launder it for him; and Motha being upset her husband invited her political rivals for dinner.

These are not the kinds of conflicts whose stakes the majority of children connect to.

I think it depends greatly on the child. Interpersonal conflict is a part of many children's day to day. And even if they cannot connect with it, that's ok too. But, I think this undersells children in some ways and in other ways insists that aspects of Star Wars are always for kids.

I think The Empire Strikes Back is a brilliant example of how a story designed for children can have universal appeal, depth, and sophistication. But the emotional stakes of that film are still very much designed with children in mind.

You and I have very difference experiences with Empire as children. Empire was the most boring film for me for the longest time, and the one I skipped when watching Star Wars as a kid. My friends and I typically watched ROTJ or ANH.

Sure, but in the process what really makes Star Wars meaningfully different from Star Trek? In the past, Star Wars was distinct because it was basically one story (or three sets of closely-related stories) whose conflicts and emotional stakes were always designed to be accessible to children in addition to adults. That's what made it an enduring classic.

Themes makes it different. And the OT is always an enduring classic story. But trying to keep Star Wars in that classic mold is a recipe for stagnation, and really how we got the PT. Star Wars is in a unique position because it now has a generation of adult fans who still want to invest in the world and are willing to explore that within the thematic framework. In my opinion, Andor is recognizing that there are fans that grew up with these stories and not keep them in the kid mode any more. Just like there are stories that are full on kid stories that some adults can appreciate. These are adult stories that some kids could potentially appreciate.

 

[Gibraltar]

Having grown up with the SW universe, as I grew older I appreciated the fact that the galaxy depicted was a huge and complex one where the viewers were treated to a very limited perspective in the course of the films. Sure, there were many ‘kiddified’ aspects to the original trilogy, and even more to the prequels, but let’s not forget that the Death Star killed millions (if not billions) and themes of slavery, genocide, civil war and fascism are woven throughout the franchise.

In my opinion, Andor is simply exploring aspects of the franchise that were touched on only briefly in the original trilogy. This series is expanding our knowledge of how the Rebel Alliance came about and the economic, social, and military imperatives which necessitated its formation.

Seeing imperial bureaucrats vying for status doesn’t take away from the Skywalker family’s story arc. In my view, getting to peek behind the scenes into the heart of the imperial machine makes the hero-arc stories even more interesting. I like getting to see the other worlds under imperial or corporate proxy rule, and the creeping, endemic hopelessness as the empire’s influence spreads throughout the galaxy.

To me, it’s the Star Wars I’ve always wanted to see. Yes, of course there’s still a place for the wizards and their laser-swords, but I find the trials and tribulations of the more average people in this far away galaxy much more thought-provoking and compelling.

 

[fireproof78]

In my opinion, Andor is simply exploring aspects of the franchise that were touched on only briefly in the original trilogy.

I agree on this point. Andor is focusing on tiny bits of dialog, little nods, that are expressed throughout the OT and other SW properties. I mean, even TPM had a corporate army invading a planet, and the federal government could do nothing. All of these things were set up to be explored in SW, and some have been through books and comics.

Andor, like Rogue One, is taking tiny bits and fleshing them out. Mileage will vary if this what you want to see in Star Wars. But, regardless, it is a part of Star Wars.

 

[Kor]

Perhaps it's better that we finally got Andor instead of Lucas's own SW: Underworld twelve years ago or so. Just imagine the "raped my childhood" vitriol that would have been leveled at GL for steering SW in a dark and gritty and more talk-y direction. At least when it's coming from a completely different creative team, those who don't like it can more easily disregard it.

Kor

 

[The Wormhole]

She was in The Twelfth Doctor episode "Last Christmas," the one with the dream crabs and Nick Frost as Santa. And should've been Clara's final episode.

Had Clara left in that episode as was originally planned, Faye Marsay's character would stick around as the Companion for the following season. Or so the rumors suggest, and there are some hints in Last Christmas which seem to imply she was meant to become a regular.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Had Clara left in that episode as was originally planned, Faye Marsay's character would stick around as the Companion for the following season. Or so the rumors suggest, and there are some hints in Last Christmas which seem to imply she was meant to become a regular.

Yeah, that was always my impression and I'm still very bummed out about that.

That said, if Shona had become the next companion, Marsay probably wouldn't have had the time to play the Waif on Game of Thrones.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yeah, that's the way I look at it. While being a Companion on Doctor Who is its own form of prestige, particularly in the modern era where many Who Companions have moved onto bigger things in their career after leaving Doctor Who, Marsay's career has certainly flourished anyway, and I doubt she has any regrets about that.

 

[Sci]

There's room for it all. Just like the people who adore Disco while it makes me puke. Don't begrudge others their thing. Disco fans can have it. I want to have Andor- I'm digging it, but I will say that it is NOT for kids.

To be clear -- I don't begrudge anyone who likes the show. I like it, and I'm watching, and I wish it and its cast and crew success. I do have a basic creative disagreement, because I would not have made this show part of the Star Wars universe, but I don't feel like it's "raping my childhood" or anything like that.

Themes makes it different. And the OT is always an enduring classic story. But trying to keep Star Wars in that classic mold is a recipe for stagnation,

I suppose that's part of my fundamental disagreement. I don't see Star Wars as being a franchise that needs to continue per se. Rather, I think of it as a franchise that seems to work well when it goes through periods of activity and then long periods of dormancy. Come back every fifteen years or so with a new trilogy and rest in between. To me that scarcity of canonical material was part of what made Star Wars special.

Star Wars is in a unique position because it now has a generation of adult fans who still want to invest in the world and are willing to explore that within the thematic framework. In my opinion, Andor is recognizing that there are fans that grew up with these stories and not keep them in the kid mode any more.

I think that's the other half of the equation -- I've just seen that happen to so many franchises over the years that I just generally don't in principle agree with the practice of adults taking stories they grew up with and moving them out of kid mode, even when it's done well (which Andor is). I just feel like kids aren't being allowed to have much in the pop culture anymore that's just theirs. But that's a broader concern than Andor per se.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't see Star Wars as being a franchise that needs to continue per se. Rather, I think of it as a franchise that seems to work well when it goes through periods of activity and then long periods of dormancy. Come back every fifteen years or so with a new trilogy and rest in between. To me that scarcity of canonical material was part of what made Star Wars special.

I disagree. I personally believe that Star Wars exists along a spectrum for children to adults. You can have more adult inserts, like Andor, or (to my mind) Empire Strikes Back or ROTS, and more child like, with Resistance, or some of the Lego installments.

I think that's the other half of the equation -- I've just seen that happen to so many franchises over the years that I just generally don't in principle agree with the practice of adults taking stories they grew up with and moving them out of kid mode, even when it's done well (which Andor is). I just feel like kids aren't being allowed to have much in the pop culture anymore that's just theirs. But that's a broader concern than Andor per

I guess I don't see that as a problem. To me, Star Wars is a franchise that crosses many different age groups, like my dad who saw it in college, or myself as an 8 year old. I don't think it is making stories out of kid mode. I think it is allowing adults to continue that child like engagement, sharing with youngers, and growing with the franchise a little bit more. Potentially having a more mature enjoyment in different stories. Nothing is being taken away from kids, but something is being given to adults. Same as what Marvel did.

 

[Crewman6]

I think that's the other half of the equation -- I've just seen that happen to so many franchises over the years that I just generally don't in principle agree with the practice of adults taking stories they grew up with and moving them out of kid mode, even when it's done well (which Andor is). I just feel like kids aren't being allowed to have much in the pop culture anymore that's just theirs. But that's a broader concern than Andor per se.

But here's where your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Star Wars isn't "for kids" and it never was.

Star Wars is for everyone. It's a classic four quadrant entertainment.

Star Wars would never have become the massive phenomenon and cultural mainstay it is if it was merely "for kids."

Kids don't get to "keep" Star Wars to themselves, it doesn't belong to them and never did. Asking Star Wars to gear itself exclusively or primarily to a kid audience is asking it to be something it never was.

In fact, there's nothing at all wrong with gearing Star Wars (or at least some of it, as it's now a multi-headed beast) to life long fans who have been fans for decades and whose tastes now tend to be more sophisticated. No reason Star Wars can't grow up with its audience at least a little bit.

Even if I accept your flawed premise that it's "for kids", why not gear it towards those millions of OG kids who were there at the beginning instead of today's kids, for whom it means much, much less and who have a thousand times more entertainment options than we had when we were that age?

 

[Crazyewok]

practice of adults taking stories they grew up with and moving them out of kid mode, even when it's done well (which Andor is). I just feel like kids aren't being allowed to have much in the pop culture anymore that's just theirs. But that's a broader concern than Andor per se.

What?

This makes no sense at all.

Andor might not be for them but they have all the other spin offs!

Infact Andor is really the only one specfically created only for adults! 90% of the franchise is still open to kids so they are not bring robbed of anything here.

Starwars is still for everyone. Having Andor just opens the franchise out to more people not restricts it.

You would only have a point if we only had Andor or all the programs followed its format.

 

[Jedman67]

Well, ultimately this is an area where I don't know either of us can rationally argue beyond this point. We're agreeing that the same things are happening, but we're assigning different values to them. For me, when you can substitute everything substantial in this story for contemporary props/setting and it still works, that's a bad thing; it means this isn't really Star Wars anymore, and it's lost the thing that makes Star Wars a distinct and special narrative rather than just another self-serious space opera for guys in their 30s and 40s who keep trying to make the thing they loved as kids be something that's for them instead of for modern kids.

You can say this about literally any franchise with roots over 40 years old. In fact, people do say this about literally every franchise

One detail that's been nagging at the back of my mind: Cassian asking Luthen what's powering his ship. I'm not sure if it's just because Fondor Haulcraft don't usually have hyperdrives, or because this one made the jump calculations shockingly fast.
Either way, between that, the kinds of objects Luthen trades in, and the rather "exotic" weaponry we saw the custom Haulcraft use in the trailer makes me think that as I previously speculated; he does indeed have a kyber crystal powering that ship!

He probably got it modded by a smuggler mechanic or something. Does everything special have to be kyber, a material invented for the Star Wars animated shows?

I suppose that's part of my fundamental disagreement. I don't see Star Wars as being a franchise that needs to continue per se. Rather, I think of it as a franchise that seems to work well when it goes through periods of activity and then long periods of dormancy. Come back every fifteen years or so with a new trilogy and rest in between. To me that scarcity of canonical material was part of what made Star Wars special.

I think that's nonsense. The popularity of Mandolorian kinda proves the opposite.

 

[Dee1891]

This is what makes it so good. As I said, when you can substitute everything substantial in this story for contempoary props / settings and it still works, you are writing on the next level. SW has had enough Disney Princesses and kiddy bombs.This shit is good for the franchise.

The Mandalorian hits the 8-year old chord in me that saw SW for the first time, and the 12-year old that saw ESB. Andor hits the adult SW chord for me now that I'm in my 50's and have watched shows like SEAL Team and Justified. There's room for it all.

There is nothing special about "Rogue One" or "Andor" in that regard. You've just described the entire Star Wars saga (even the Sequel Trilogy). That's the franchise that George Lucas had created in a nutshell. A story with elements that hit the chords of both adults and children.

 

[Reverend]

He probably got it modded by a smuggler mechanic or something. Does everything special have to be kyber, a material invented for the Star Wars animated shows?

First off: no it wasn't. Kyber in some form or another goes WAY back to the early drafts of ANH, it just didn't come up until TCW. (se also the term: "Padawan" and "Midichlorians".)
Second off: It's obviously been modded in more ways that one (he can certainly afford it), and I didn't say it HAD to have anything to do with kyber. Just that "abnormally powerful" plus "shoots cohesive laser beams" does usually mean there's a kyber crystal in there somewhere.