"And the Children Shall Lead" wasn't all that bad...
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A.V.I.A.F.
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That was from Miri and not from And the Children Shall Lead. I think Miri is actually quite a good episode. Still feel bad for that poor freak whose tricycle got broken.
And why is that? I think it’s one of the best first-season episodes — once you get past the stupid and unnecessary “exact duplicate of Earth” gimmick.
There are a few similarities between "Miri" and "And the Children Shall Lead", but the former is slow, boring and kind of a chore to watch. "Children", for its many, many flaws, at least has this weird sense of goofiness that keeps it from being dull. Technically, "Miri" is the better episode, I just really don't care for it.
Probably the worst part about the writing is that one five or even three second line of dialog given to Spock when he and Kirk are in the cave at the beginning of act one would have solved at least half of the plot holes. Have Spock point out that the Vulcans have legends of a warrior race called the Gorgans that disappeared thousands of years ago and he only has to confirm it once they're back on the ship, plus Kirk suddenly knowing what the Gorgan is called isn't sudden. Bad writing, worse direction, bad episode. Could have been much better. I blame Fred Freiberger.
That's something we'll never know - how much of the "bad" episodes got cut during shooting or editing. From a strict running time perspective, sometimes those little bits of exposition are the first to go because the editor isn't as intimately familiar with the story as the writer and director are. And in TV, the editor's main job is to hit a certain finished running time.
It would have been interesting to see a TNG version of the story idea. I wonder how it would've turned out with better writing, acting, and budget.
Joseph Mazello (from Star Kid and Jurassic Park) would've been a great shoe-in for Tommy Starnes, while he was still young:
Joseph Mazello (from Star Kid and Jurassic Park) would've been a great shoe-in for Tommy Starnes, while he was still young:
I am new to TOS and recently watched "And the Children Shall Lead". I think it's awful, probably the worst TOS episode I have ever seen so far, even worse than Spock's Brain. I haven't seen "The Way to Eden" yet so I don't know how it will compare to this episode but boy it was bad! 
The Way to Eden at least has some groooovy musical numbers!
"Spock's Brain" and "The Way to Eden" are fantastic compared to the turd that is "ATCSL".
What a stinker.
The Way to Eden at least has some groooovy musical numbers!
"Spock's Brain" and "The Way to Eden" are fantastic compared to the turd that is "ATCSL".
What a stinker.
ATCSL?
The Way to Eden at least has some groooovy musical numbers!
"Spock's Brain" and "The Way to Eden" are fantastic compared to the turd that is "ATCSL".
What a stinker.
ATCSL?
ATCSL = "And The Children Shall Lead"
True.The Way to Eden at least has some groooovy musical numbers!
"Spock's Brain" and "The Way to Eden" are fantastic compared to the turd that is "ATCSL".
What a stinker.
What do you mean, "knowing"? From the looks of it, Kirk invented the name.
There is no competing name for the beast, so Kirk is fully entitled to invent one by himself. And he does pick up a fairly good generic monster name - gorgons are real classics in Earth history.
Timo Saloniemi
Ah, how quickly we forget....
The Final Draft script dated June 21, 1968 sheds a little bit of light on this issue.
In Scene 215 after Mister Spock plays back the tape of the children's chant from earlier, Kirk moves from his position where he was standing near Spock's station and goes over in front of the turbo lift where Melvin Belli is slowly beginning to appear:
KIRK
The time has come to gather and
see the world as it is.
The shimmering figure of Gorgan begins to appear
before the boys who do not form a circle, only watch,
uncertain, confused.
KIRK
(continuing)
Come -- join us. You must
have a name.
TOMMY
(defiantly)
He is Gorgan. He is our friend --
and he is powerful.
Now Gorgan reaches full flower.
GORGAN
(confused)
Who has summoned me?
KIRK
I did, Gorgan. My beast is gone.
It lost its power in the light of
reality. I command again. And I
ordered you to appear.
It's hard to tell if the dialog was shot but not used or if it was simply never shot at all. My hunch, from looking at how the scene is edited, is that the little bit of dialog was indeed shot but not ultimately used.
It's a little plot hole, I guess, and it's hard to say why the two seconds of dialog wasn't used. I guess it slowed down the exquisite storytelling that was going on and I guess the writer and/or director and/or editor just figured that the audience would simply conclude that one of the kids told Kirk the name of this alien being offscreen at some point. (We don't see Kirk get dressed in the morning, either--but viewers are pretty capable of figuring out that such a thing must have happened off camera.)
As has been said before: this line doesn't really salvage the episode. But it's interesting that it's not a plot hole that someone forgot to fill; rather, it's a plot hole someone created for some unknown reason--either intentionally or accidentally.
More in this old thread from a year ago:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4235584&postcount=6
The Final Draft script dated June 21, 1968 sheds a little bit of light on this issue.
In Scene 215 after Mister Spock plays back the tape of the children's chant from earlier, Kirk moves from his position where he was standing near Spock's station and goes over in front of the turbo lift where Melvin Belli is slowly beginning to appear:
KIRK
The time has come to gather and
see the world as it is.
The shimmering figure of Gorgan begins to appear
before the boys who do not form a circle, only watch,
uncertain, confused.
KIRK
(continuing)
Come -- join us. You must
have a name.
TOMMY
(defiantly)
He is Gorgan. He is our friend --
and he is powerful.
Now Gorgan reaches full flower.
GORGAN
(confused)
Who has summoned me?
KIRK
I did, Gorgan. My beast is gone.
It lost its power in the light of
reality. I command again. And I
ordered you to appear.
It's hard to tell if the dialog was shot but not used or if it was simply never shot at all. My hunch, from looking at how the scene is edited, is that the little bit of dialog was indeed shot but not ultimately used.
It's a little plot hole, I guess, and it's hard to say why the two seconds of dialog wasn't used. I guess it slowed down the exquisite storytelling that was going on and I guess the writer and/or director and/or editor just figured that the audience would simply conclude that one of the kids told Kirk the name of this alien being offscreen at some point. (We don't see Kirk get dressed in the morning, either--but viewers are pretty capable of figuring out that such a thing must have happened off camera.)
As has been said before: this line doesn't really salvage the episode. But it's interesting that it's not a plot hole that someone forgot to fill; rather, it's a plot hole someone created for some unknown reason--either intentionally or accidentally.
More in this old thread from a year ago:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4235584&postcount=6
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