Ancient Technology that may or may not be Ahead of its Time, or Even True

[XCV330]

maybe we have tiny intelligent creatures in our guts that we cannot see, who have existed long before our primative ancestors first made crude christmas toys out of saber tooth tiger bones and their own disgusting waste. when they need to communicate they cause pressure in the lower abdomen and begin to cause it to be expelled at various harmonics that then travel along etheral pathways, especially in crowded rooms and elevators. yes, that makes more sense than evolution.


seriously this entire section of the forum is a big steaming fucking joke.

 

[Will The Serious]

yes, that makes more sense than evolution.

My thoughts, even if true, do not weaken the tautology of Natural Selection. I'm just suggesting there are, in fact, sometimes the possibilities that we don't recognize ancient technology.

So sorry you think so poorly of these posts.

-Will

 

[Will The Serious]

maybe we have tiny intelligent creatures in our guts that we cannot see, who have existed long before our primative ancestors first made crude christmas toys out of saber tooth tiger bones and their own disgusting waste. when they need to communicate they cause pressure in the lower abdomen and begin to cause it to be expelled at various harmonics that then travel along etheral pathways, especially in crowded rooms and elevators.

There are, in fact, parasites that affect the behaviors of their hosts to act in very specific ways. There's a worm that parasitizes spiders. When the worm is ready to break its way out of the spider's body (like Aliens), it causes water seeking behavior in the spiders, where the worm needs to lay its eggs.

-Will

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

seriously this entire section of the forum is a big steaming fucking joke.

Unfortunately, subjects with an historical, inherently unrepeatable basis are not readily falsifiable. Confirmation bias, religious predilection and groupthink often seem to creep into any attempt at rational discussion.

Unless someone invents a time machine, we're always going to have an element of orthodoxy opposing, ignoring and even suppressing anything that doesn't fit the narrative. On the other hand, people need to have an open mind, but perhaps not so open that their common sense falls out.

What is being increasingly amplified by the Internet is human behaviour that almost seems designed to stifle progress. I sometimes wonder if the Sophons of The Three-Body Problem are as outlandish a weapon as they seem.

 

[Will The Serious]

The Vedas are ancient Hindu texts dating back as far as 1500 BCE. I first became aware of them when in discussion in the online portion of a Calculus Analysis class. I was leading a discussion about the nature of Infinity on the back of reading Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. The discussion led to my reading about Cantor's proof of multiple infinities, and I came across information about how Infinity was treated in the Vedas.

The Vedas support Cantor's hard won conclusion, taking it several steps further by describing never ending finite sets, such as the set of all Integers; infinite sets, such as the set of Real Numbers, and infinite sets of infinite sets, such as the set of all Imaginary numbers. Cantor proved that there were infinite sets that were larger or smaller than other infinite sets. He used a proof that was actually very similar to Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. Both Cantor's and Gödel's concepts are reportedly found in these ancient Indian scrolls. I'm not so sure Gödel's incompleteness is there, but the idea of constructs containing models of itself are.

The sophistication of mathematics from these early times makes me wonder if Newton and Leibniz were the first inventors of Calculus. In the Vedas, from what I can remember from my very casual research, actually describe three basic types of infinities, as I touched on above. Each of these three basic categories of Infinity were further divided into the sub-categories. That's about as far as my reading had taken me. I found this in some online description of early Hindu mathematics.

I did not read the Vedas or a translation of them, just a summery of these very specific concepts. It should be understood that the Vedas are a series of texts that are primarily religious, so I can not even vouch for the accuracy of any translation. These mathematical ideas might even have been read as metaphors that some scholar took as proof of rigorous treatments of math when they may not have been. However, I see no reason to believe such scientific thinking was not the case. Certainly, if you read Bertrand Russell's A History of Western Philosophy, ancient India can be credited with significant contributions to modern maths and science.

-Will

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I'd argue that one has to beware of projecting what we know onto ancient texts, but it seems the Vedic sutras contain much mathematical wisdom - albeit not in a modern formulation. There are apparently many sources that discuss such sutras, but I haven't read any of them.

Vedic Math Books: The Top 5 Vedic Math Books - Humsa School

Vedic Maths is a very vast topic. In this lesson, we will cover its importance, history and 5 Vedic math books. Importance of Vedic Maths To start with, The importance of Vedic Mathematics is very great. You can be aware of the importance of calculating when you prepare for a competitive exam...

learn.humsa.com

Review of "Vedic Mathematics: A Mathematical Tale from the Ancient Veda to Modern Times" by Giuseppe Dattoli, Silvia Licciardi, and Marcello Artioli

 

[Will The Serious]

it seems the Vedic sutras contain much mathematical wisdom - albeit not in a modern formulation.

The subject of Infinity is one of those nebulous concepts that lends itself to religious and philosophical language that may seem precise and mathematical, but may not have roots in math, as written. So, it can be difficult to distill.

I hold the position that two infinite numbers can be distinctly different values mathematically. I was surprised by the resistance I got at my thoughts. It seems Infinity is seen as a value itself instead of a category of values. But then, I also hold that 0.9999... is not 1. So that's an absolute non-starter for almost everyone.

-Will

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Mathematical proofs depend on what axioms are chosen or are interpreted: Euclid's parallel (aka fifth) postulate, axiom of choice (AC), continuum hypothesis (CH) and so on. I'm certainly neither a Platonist nor a neo-Meinongianist - probably a nominalist of some variety, although I'm not sure whether paraphrasist or fictionalist. It's not something that's at all important to me as I'm not a mathematician. Mathematics is a useful tool, but it's just as inherently flawed as its creators. Infinity is a fiction that can lead to bamboozlement and paradoxes, which is why some mathematicians eschew it completely. Such a finitist approach rejects Cantor's approach to set theory.

 

[publiusr]

Apeiron… the Greeks called it-they hated the concept.

So help me, but I seem to remember tales long ago of something like this discovery:

Living beings emit a faint light that extinguishes upon death, according to a new study

The light of someone's life might not be just another person, but light in the literal sense. According to a recent study by researchers from University of Calgary, every living system emits light without requiring external excitation due to a biological phenomenon known as ultraweak photon...

phys.org

Maybe it is bad science—or maybe the story itself is part of a sociological experiment about how gullible people can be.

A couple of tidbits to throw out there:
It is considered bad form for a researcher to erase what is on a clipboard (?)

Doctor Dean Edell once said that surgeons were trained to say “there!”
instead of…”oops.”

This imaging technique made a splash:

'Virtual time freezing' technique lets scientists see inside spinning engines and tools

Researchers have developed a real-time imaging system that can capture images of fast-spinning objects over long durations. Real-time monitoring of rotating parts such as the turbine blades used in power plants or the fan blades of jet engines is critical for detecting early signs of damage—such...

phys.org

—I thought we already had timing lights.

 

[Will The Serious]

Apieron - boundless

https://iep.utm.edu/anaximander/

I believe this is Michael Angelo's depiction of Anaximander, from his mural in the Vatican. The mural is usually referred to as the School of Athens, but its actual name is Knowledge of Causes

"Anaximander was the author of the first surviving lines of Western philosophy. He speculated and argued about “the Boundless” as the origin of all that is. He also worked on the fields of what we now call geography and biology. Moreover, Anaximander was the first speculative astronomer. He originated the world-picture of the open universe, which replaced the closed universe of the celestial vault.

His work will always remain truncated, like the mutilated and decapitated statue that has been found at the market-place of Miletus and that bears his name. Nevertheless, by what we know of him, we may say that he was one of the greatest minds that ever lived. By speculating and arguing about the “Boundless” he was the first metaphysician. By drawing a map of the world he was the first geographer. But above all, by boldly speculating about the universe he broke with the ancient image of the celestial vault and became the discoverer of the Western world-picture."

"According to Aristotle and Theophrastus, the first Greek philosophers were looking for the “origin” or “principle” (the Greek word “archê” has both meanings) of all things. Anaximander is said to have identified it with “the Boundless” or “the Unlimited” (Greek: “apeiron,” that is, “that which has no boundaries”). Already in ancient times, it is complained that Anaximander did not explain what he meant by “the Boundless.” More recently, authors have disputed whether the Boundless should be interpreted as spatially or temporarily without limits, or perhaps as that which has no qualifications, or as that which is inexhaustible. Some scholars have even defended the meaning “that which is not experienced,” by relating the Greek word “apeiron” not to “peras” (“boundary,” “limit”), but to “perao” (“to experience,” “to apperceive”)."

Another word for unknown, like"singularity" and "dark".

Never the less, to move from a celestial "vault", like a dome of stars, is a significant paradigm shift. By what evidence might Anaximander have made this egregious speculation?

"Aristotle reports a curious argument, which probably goes back to Anaximander, in which it is argued that the Boundless has no origin, because it is itself the origin. We would say that it looks more like a string of associations and word-plays than like a formal argument. It runs as follows: “Everything has an origin or is an origin. The Boundless has no origin. For then it would have a limit. Moreover, it is both unborn and immortal, being a kind of origin. For that which has become has also, necessarily, an end, and there is a termination to every process of destruction” (Physics 203b6-10, DK 12A15)."

There you go. Apieron is, by definition, the origin, therefore, it has no origin itself. The bottom of the turtle pile, so to speak.

Anaximander is a very interesting historical character to read about. Student of Thales, I believe he is the one who told Pythagoras to seek out the Egyptian's for his education.

-Will

 

[Will The Serious]

https://indiandefencereview.com/arc...-old-worlds-oldest-calendar-humans-ever-made/

"An ancient archaeological site in southern Turkey, known as Göbekli Tepe, is attracting renewed attention as researchers suggest it houses the world’s oldest known solar calendar. Dating back around 12,000 years, this monumental complex reveals sophisticated knowledge of astronomical cycles, challenging previous ideas about the origins of timekeeping and early civilization."
...
"The study highlights the inhabitants’ keen observation of celestial events, possibly driven by a world-changing comet strike around 10,850 BCE."

The comet strike the article is referring to is a theoretical event that led to what is known as the Younger Dryas, a cooling and mass extinction period. The comet probably did happen, but it appears to have exploded over North America. (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/did-a-comet-hit-earth-12900-years-ago/)

I have a hard time seeing how people 13000 years ago would associate this event with a little ice age or other environmental changes. However, this is also the time the mammoths and saber toothed tigers and giant sloth bears died out. If a regular food source was getting scarce, maybe a closer track of the seasons would be helpful. More likely, the change from hunter gatherer societies to agricultural societies would mean a much keener interest in the seasons.

If the climate forced a shift in lifestyle that meant a more settled community, structures like meeting houses and more permanent indoor spaces would be developed. Without electric lights or gas lanterns, or decent chimneys for good smoke drafts, buildings would have to be built to take advantage of the sun's position. A permanent structure might be designed for sunlight to reach into the center of a structure at specific times of the year on sacred days for ceremonies. Maybe something monthly, or just to keep track of the dates for group gatherings. What might be taken as a calendar, may actually just be a practical solution to indoor lighting.

Stone Henge was very likely erected as a great hall for multi-tribal meetings on holy days. It would have had log beams holding up a roof with a chimney oculus in the center. Only the stone skeleton didn't rot away or get cannibalized by nearby celts after it's use was abandoned or forgotten. The column with 365 marks on it is interesting. Is there a progression of numerical marks, or only that one?

If a window let's light into a room for working in, a table might be positioned where the zenith of the sun's progress has the best light in the middle of the day. As the days progress, that table might be moved farther in one direction until the sun's light dictated the table reverse it's progress for the best noon position. If, after three years or so, someone noticed a repeating cycle, how hard would it be to track the days in a year? For the ancient Egyptians, that's what obelisks were for. They were a giant gnomon.

How likely is it that the first calendar was built 12,800 years ago? There must have been conceptual models that worked before such a large construction project was undertaken.

-Will

 

[Will The Serious]

The Mayan Calendar. Its largest cycle is the Long Count calendar, measuring 1,872,000 days (5,125.366 years).

https://maya.nmai.si.edu/calendar/calendar-system#:~:text=The Maya sacred calendar is,x 13 equals 260 days.

The Mayan long count cycle ended December 21st in 2012, on winter solstice.

Considering the outcry about the world ending on that day, I can't help but wonder which group was the most primitive, modern or ancient? I have no doubt that the ancient Mayans would have believed the cycle would just begin again, as all the smaller cycles had.

-Will