Amok Time: Nurse Chapel in Spock's Quarters

[Phaser Two]

So that was Spock's wildly incompetent attempt at seducing Nurse Chapel. And she didn't even know what he was trying to say, so she missed her opportunity.

I suppose that could be the writer's intent. Does anybody else think that?

No. It's the exact opposite for me. Illogical for us to protest against our natures means that we should just give up and stop fighting who we are. And for Spock, that's a Vulcan who suppresses his emotions and could never have a relationship with the relatively emotional (not a criticism) Chapel.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

No. It's the exact opposite for me. Illogical for us to protest against our natures means that we should just give up and stop fighting who we are. And for Spock, that's a Vulcan who suppresses his emotions and could never have a relationship with the relatively emotional (not a criticism) Chapel.

But Spock's father married a human (two if you count TNG canon), so "never" is a strong world.

The trouble with "It would be illogical for us to protest against our natures" is that it functions like a triple-negative. Illogical, protest, and against are all negative or contrary concepts. So how do they modify each other? Do they cancel or add?

That's why I think it's a horrible line of dialogue, except insofar as it was supposed to confuse Chapel, in which sense it's brilliant.

 

[Phaser Two]

But Spock's father married a human (two if you count TNG canon), so "never" is a strong world.

The trouble with "It would be illogical for us to protest against our natures" is that it functions like a triple-negative. Illogical, protest, and against are all negative or contrary concepts. So how do they modify each other? Do they cancel or add?

That's why I think it's a horrible line of dialogue, except insofar as it was supposed to confuse Chapel, in which sense it's brilliant.

While the writers had Spock say way too many silly things, I actually like this one and have never had a problem with it. It just translates to "Fighting what we are doesn't make any sense, does it?"

 

[ZapBrannigan]

While the writers had Spock say way too many silly things, I actually like this one and have never had a problem with it. It just translates to "Fighting what we are doesn't make any sense, does it?"

Yes, but "what are we?" when Spock is so out of his mind that he goes behind Kirk's back to change the ship's course? Is he saying we should go along with Vulcan logic, or with Vulcan blood fever?

That's why I think he might be momentarily groping for the words to get Chapel into bed. And then he quickly gives up on that.

 

[Phaser Two]

Yes, but "what are we?" when Spock is so out of his mind that he goes behind Kirk's back to change the ship's course? Is he saying we should go along with Vulcan logic, or with Vulcan blood fever?

Interesting theory. But since he says immediately before that he woke up from a dream where he and Chapel couldn't communicate, I'm going with the concept that they can't transcend the distance between them and should stop acting otherwise.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

Yes, Spock (who claims in SNW that "Vulcans don't dream") has a dream about Christine. Clearly the dream means they don't understand each other. Fair enough. Why does he say the comment at all? What's the purpose? Christine didn't come to seduce him, she came to give him news. Did he assume the former? "It would be illogical for either of us to protest against our natures." Yes, it is a clumsy come on. I know people hate this idea but it has logic to it. Why should Spock die in madness when this perfectly attractive intelligent lady wants him? Christine asks for clarification and then tells him he's headed for Vulcan and then he seems to rethink it and asks her to come back later with more Plomeek soup. Right. Plomeek soup. Right. Spock and Chapel slept together but the script kept it illusive. This is why he is able to be in Plak Tow and speak. Chapel is OVERJOYED at this simple request. Seems odd to me. How overjoyed can a woman get for serving a patient some food?
We all make our own inferences but why then, is she the woman uppermost in his mind for the Platonians? I know the scripts don't fit together very well, but if I were a betting woman I would bet that Christine returned with Plomeek soup, a bottle of wine and "somethin" else"

 

[Warped9]

SNW says Vulcans don’t dream? What a crock of shit.

 

[Qonundrum]

If SNW can make the concept of "Vulcans don't dream"* an appealing notion while not coming across like SNL, and IMHO the more I'm thinking into that the more I like it, I don't recall any TOS episode or 80s movie having him do dream sequences (please correct me if I'm misremembering), but keeping in mind that TMP shows some big-heiney moons in the Vulcan backdrop there and yet TOS has Spock upsetting Uhura by saying "Vulcan has no moon"...

...of course, that TOS episode was "The Man Trap", which - despite a few interesting and compelling ideas - isn't more than the sum of its parts.

Assuming later TOS episodes didn't show a moon, or even a space plumber bending over in front of the main viewscreen, of course...

Or even TAS, but not everybody's going to count that. And thanks to TMP's pre-"director's cut with the wimpywhiny alert klaxon", nobody needs to either.



* Yeah, "Amok Time" has Spock discussing his dream**, but in all fairness it is a fairly small detail that's more easily overlooked than Man Trap's "Sorry Uhura, we have no moon, ha-ha" followed by TAS and TMP throwing in more big round things than a billiards convention... there's no real way to reconcile everything. If some of the big stuff is kept reasonably in check, itty bitty minutiae isn't going to sting***. (Of course, not diddling with prequels and risking any number of audiences and making something new - the obvious cliche**** standby response - gets around all of this entirely. But, again, what's TAS's and TMP's excuses as those were made a handful of years after TOS... not numerous decades later... I have a thing for pedantry and minutiae, but it's either scary and/or depressing to acknowledge even I think it sometimes gets excessive. Now if I could tell my 30 year-old self that and go get laid instead, I'd have a lot more social diseases by now but that's not as much fun. Also, circular logic makes me dizzy.)


** The offending line of dialogue in question from Amok Time:

SPOCK: I had a most startling dream. You were trying to tell me something, but I couldn't hear you. It would be illogical for us to protest against our natures. Don't you think?

*** One can hope they'd at least try. It was harder back in the day, unless some overzealous fan with eidetic memory, or original script writer who didn't end up hating the show, pointed out where lots of men and men may have written before.

**** the best cliche ever is how TOS set the standard for "you canna' beam through things with the shields up" and yet TNG felt like they were making that gaffe every fifth episode or so. But I recall fans being uppity as well, especially for "Relics". Now that was a day at the sci-fi bookstore to observe, back in the day...

 

[Phaser Two]

SNW says Vulcans don’t dream? What a crock of shit.

I'd be willing to bet, having not yet seen SNW but having seen the same Spock depicted on DISC, that Spock was dissembling about that.

 

[Kor]

SNW does not claim that Vulcans don't dream. If we're going to criticize the show, let's at least make sure we're being accurate.

Spoiler: SNW episode 5

In the episode "Spock Amok," Spock has a very vivid dream in which he has to fight a full human version of himself, in an homage to the ritual combat in Amok Time, complete with Vulcan weapons and the classic fight music.
The scene for those who want to see:

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And then he himself states that he had a dream.
Spock: "I had a terrible dream last night that I had to fight my human side."
Chapel: "Vulcans don’t do subtle, do you?"

Kor

 

[Qonundrum]

SNW does not claim that Vulcans don't dream. If we're going to criticize the show, let's at least make sure we're being accurate.

Spoiler: SNW episode 5

In the episode "Spock Amok," Spock has a very vivid dream in which he has to fight a full human version of himself, in an homage to the ritual combat in Amok Time, complete with Vulcan weapons and the classic fight music.
The scene for those who want to see:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

And then he himself states that he had a dream.
Spock: "I had a terrible dream last night that I had to fight my human side."
Chapel: "Vulcans don’t do subtle, do you?"

Kor

I have no words to describe that scene.

I do have, however, an emoticon that does:

Spoiler

I also just managed to find some words, as the adoption center is still open:

Spoiler

That scene is flippin' awesome. Hurry up blu-ray set.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

SNW says Vulcans don’t dream? What a crock of shit.

Actually Spock said it. What I'm thinking is Spock actively supresses dreams. T'Pol discounted the importance of the subconscious so that makes sense. In "Amok" he is not in control at the moment so he had a dream.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

If SNW can make the concept of "Vulcans don't dream"* an appealing notion while not coming across like SNL, and IMHO the more I'm thinking into that the more I like it, I don't recall any TOS episode or 80s movie having him do dream sequences (please correct me if I'm misremembering), but keeping in mind that TMP shows some big-heiney moons in the Vulcan backdrop there and yet TOS has Spock upsetting Uhura by saying "Vulcan has no moon"...

...of course, that TOS episode was "The Man Trap", which - despite a few interesting and compelling ideas - isn't more than the sum of its parts.

Assuming later TOS episodes didn't show a moon, or even a space plumber bending over in front of the main viewscreen, of course...

Or even TAS, but not everybody's going to count that. And thanks to TMP's pre-"director's cut with the wimpywhiny alert klaxon", nobody needs to either.



* Yeah, "Amok Time" has Spock discussing his dream**, but in all fairness it is a fairly small detail that's more easily overlooked than Man Trap's "Sorry Uhura, we have no moon, ha-ha" followed by TAS and TMP throwing in more big round things than a billiards convention... there's no real way to reconcile everything. If some of the big stuff is kept reasonably in check, itty bitty minutiae isn't going to sting***. (Of course, not diddling with prequels and risking any number of audiences and making something new - the obvious cliche**** standby response - gets around all of this entirely. But, again, what's TAS's and TMP's excuses as those were made a handful of years after TOS... not numerous decades later... I have a thing for pedantry and minutiae, but it's either scary and/or depressing to acknowledge even I think it sometimes gets excessive. Now if I could tell my 30 year-old self that and go get laid instead, I'd have a lot more social diseases by now but that's not as much fun. Also, circular logic makes me dizzy.)


** The offending line of dialogue in question from Amok Time:


*** One can hope they'd at least try. It was harder back in the day, unless some overzealous fan with eidetic memory, or original script writer who didn't end up hating the show, pointed out where lots of men and men may have written before.

**** the best cliche ever is how TOS set the standard for "you canna' beam through things with the shields up" and yet TNG felt like they were making that gaffe every fifth episode or so. But I recall fans being uppity as well, especially for "Relics". Now that was a day at the sci-fi bookstore to observe, back in the day...

The "moon" on Vulcan is a planet nearby, so NO Vulcan has no moon.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

Yes, but "what are we?" when Spock is so out of his mind that he goes behind Kirk's back to change the ship's course? Is he saying we should go along with Vulcan logic, or with Vulcan blood fever?

That's why I think he might be momentarily groping for the words to get Chapel into bed. And then he quickly gives up on that.

Well, he does sorta give up on it because she is pretending not to understand. Very ladylike is Christine.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

Interesting theory. But since he says immediately before that he woke up from a dream where he and Chapel couldn't communicate, I'm going with the concept that they can't transcend the distance between them and should stop acting otherwise.

When did Spock ever act otherwise? Note. Spock is not in his right mind right now. What makes more sense. "Christie, you need to go because it just won't work." or "Christie I need you baby I'm gonna die." What is Spock's motivation right now? It's survival.

 

[1001001]

Actually Spock said it. What I'm thinking is Spock actively supresses dreams. T'Pol discounted the importance of the subconscious so that makes sense. In "Amok" he is not in control at the moment so he had a dream.

The "moon" on Vulcan is a planet nearby, so NO Vulcan has no moon.

Well, he does sorta give up on it because she is pretending not to understand. Very ladylike is Christine.

When did Spock ever act otherwise? Note. Spock is not in his right mind right now. What makes more sense. "Christie, you need to go because it just won't work." or "Christie I need you baby I'm gonna die." What is Spock's motivation right now? It's survival.

Please use the multiquote function, as I have here, from now on.

Posting more than twice in a row is not cricket.

Thanks

 

[Qonundrum]

The "moon" on Vulcan is a planet nearby, so NO Vulcan has no moon.

So the little round thing in front of the big round thing is the other planet's satellite? Is there a fan-made solar system chart for Vulcan and its planets? Horizon and atmosphere prevailing, and the illusion of relative size, how far away are the other planet and satellite to look so large and not cause tidal or other gravity-based issues?

https://blog.trekcore.com/2017/10/star-trek-discoverys-canon-connections-episode-106/
Site has the original image* showing the nearby planet and satellite that remains up in the air, so to speak...

But, if T'Khut really is that close to Vulcan and is really that ginormous, something would go K'put very quickly...

Either which way, a TOS script mentions Vulcan had no moon, TAS and TMP did show moons, so half the time people will be right. The most obvious thing to do, apart from replacing everything with CGI or digital voice alterations, would be to eke in some new retro continuity saying the moon exploded or Daleks put in an engine core and puttered it around the galaxy** out of boredom or something, probably...

* prior to "TMP Director Edition with wimpy alarm noise"'s editing of the visuals

** which wouldn't work in the way that story told, but when Doctor Who has always been a bit variable when it came to being sci-fi - after a certain point, but I digress again...

 

[Noname Given]

SNW says Vulcans don’t dream? What a crock of shit.

Well - TOS Spock also claimed Vulcans don't lie.

 

[SpocksTricorder]

Her name is Christine! Yes, yes I know, Christine!
JB

Fascinating. Thought she was (character) acting. That's what they do.

 

[Commishsleer]

Did Chapel even know the "Mate or Die" thing?