Amok Time doesn't make sense.

[Gov Kodos]

It's a shame, really. I've been to at least a dozen weddings in my life and never once has anyone challenged anyone else to a battle to the death--or even stood up and objected to the marriage!

I don't mind it, they're not human, why should they think or act like humans in their culture?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Spock was surprised as anybody else when T'Pring actually chose the challenge option.

While there was no reason for Spock to suspect at the time he beamed down, when the bridal party entered he could have begun to realize.

First official clue would have been the presence of Stonn. I think that it was fairly obvious that the original plan was that he was to be the champion. Everyone else in the bridal party had a role or duty. Why was Stonn walking in?

Second clue might have been to entrance of the weapons carriers, while it might be tradition to alway have weapon present, I do wonder if they are only brought if there is a anticipation of combat.

It might have not been the biggest of secrets (except to Spock) that T'Pring was going to contest the marriage.

My assumption is that the presence of weapons was (usually) ceremonial, as when, say, the Queen of England knights someone or when a military honor guard carries sabers or rifles at a funeral or whatever. Nobody is expecting actual combat!

(I was actually walking the dog by our local cemetery the other day when I was startled by gunfire. Turns out there was a military funeral going on.)

As for Stonn, Spock brought two guests to the ceremony, so why shouldn't T'Pring? For all Spock knew, Stonn was just a close friend or colleague of T'Pring's who was there to share this moment with her. It's not like Spock was up to date on her personal life.

Yeah. I think the ceremony was going the way it usually went, as expected, until T'Pring held out her hand and stopped Spock from ringing the gong.

 

[Timo]

One really wonders how much of this ceremony would have been part of routine pon farr management for the average Sjoek and T'Jane, and how much was unique to

a) a member of the exalted family of Sarek (or T'Pring's no doubt equally exalted lineage)
b) an inhabitant of Shi'Kahr, a potential backwater with quaint folkways
c) a member of the strange cult that still practices telepathic bonding against modern Vulcan ways

I really doubt every family could afford such an arena. And we didn't exactly see more than one next to Shi'Kahr - is it a single-family town, if not literally, then in the old Western style of being utterly ruled by the Boss Man and his sons (or perhaps the Boss Lady and her daughters)? Is T'Pau perhaps a native of Shi'Kahr? Is she a member of Spock's family, or T'Pring's, or even both?

Quite probably, all Vulcans take their pon farr shame to as distant a location as possible. Perhaps Shi'Kahr, on the edge of the desert, is a popular site for sex tourism because nobody goes there for any other reason? And Sarek's family just runs the ancient grounds for a variety of customers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[horatio83]

I agree that the place was unusual. We saw another marriage in ENT's "Home" taking place in the backyard of a house so I guess that Sarek being an influential figure has something to do with it. Vulcan is a meritocratic and not an egalitarian society so people with better skills, a better job and more power and responsibility also get fancier stuff like this place and the presence of T'Pau.

 

[Gary7]

Gary, did you listen to the episode?

Sorry for being late on the reply -- had other things going. Yes, I did watch and listen to the episode.

Of course, Kirk didn't realize it was a duel to the death initially... but even still after he learned of this, he was now aware that there would have to be a death in the outcome. Why even continue, knowing how Spock has the Vulcan strength advantage? He should have declined and appealed to T'PAU because he was NOT informed of the death requirement.

So Kirk took a huge risk going forward, as Spock would've killed him due to his mental state. In my interpretation, I believe Kirk was going for the angle of hoping to disable Spock in some way and then not go through with the killing, call it a draw.

Bones took a calculated risk, but he was against the wall, should he stand and do nothing? So he actually allowed Kirk to "quit" by drugging him. Honor was satisfied and no one died. The dialogue is quite clear.

I never suggested otherwise--of course it was prudent for Bones to try something. He did take a huge gamble. Spock was strangling Kirk and then Kirk goes limp due to the neural paralyzer injection. But Spock could've easily snapped Kirk's neck once his resistance went slack. Thankfully Spock didn't keep applying pressure and stopped once Kirk had passed out.

Anyway, I probably came across a bit more harsh than I intended.

 

[Marsden]

Anyway, I probably came across a bit more harsh than I intended.

Oh, no problem. What I got from your other post was that you missed those two sentences, if they were gone it would change the whole meaning of his involvment.

 

[Keith1701]

Having just watched Amok Time, there are a few things about the episode which made me feel it was badly written.

A Starfleet captain who knows nothing about the culture of their fellow Federation co-founders is bad enough, but a Starfleet doctor who knows nothing about Vulcan physiology despite having a half-Vulcan crew member is just ridiculous.

And as for "Oh well they just don't talk about it"?

This thing that happens every 7 years to every member of their species that is so embarrassingly super-secret they never talk about it to non-Vulcans ever, yet they have this grand and pompous ritual ceremony where they invite their nearest and dearest to attend?

I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...

So T'Pring didn't want Spock anymore as she'd grown attached to another guy, she was taking a big risk that the victor of Spock's battle didn't decide to drag her along and make her live on the Enterprise anyway.

of course, this episode makes sense.

 

[RPJOB]

One really wonders how much of this ceremony would have been part of routine pon farr management for the average Sjoek and T'Jane, and how much was unique to

a) a member of the exalted family of Sarek (or T'Pring's no doubt equally exalted lineage)
b) an inhabitant of Shi'Kahr, a potential backwater with quaint folkways
c) a member of the strange cult that still practices telepathic bonding against modern Vulcan ways

I really doubt every family could afford such an arena. And we didn't exactly see more than one next to Shi'Kahr - is it a single-family town, if not literally, then in the old Western style of being utterly ruled by the Boss Man and his sons (or perhaps the Boss Lady and her daughters)? Is T'Pau perhaps a native of Shi'Kahr? Is she a member of Spock's family, or T'Pring's, or even both?

Quite probably, all Vulcans take their pon farr shame to as distant a location as possible. Perhaps Shi'Kahr, on the edge of the desert, is a popular site for sex tourism because nobody goes there for any other reason? And Sarek's family just runs the ancient grounds for a variety of customers.

Timo Saloniemi

Spock mentions that the arena has been in his family land for two thousand Earth years. In that time I would imagine that his family has grown quite large. I imagine that it would be used for first marriages, such as Spock and T'Pring or Sarek and the mother of Sybok. Sarek's later weddings to Amanda or Perin were probably much less elaborate affairs. If each member of the family (or just the males as T'Pring is not at her family's shrine but at Spock's) on;y uses the space once in a lifetime it could be used by thousands of members of Spock's family over time. We may cut off our definition of family at Second or third cousin. Vulcan's may big much larger. In Yesteryear Spock impersonated a cousin and Sarek didn't recognize him but accepted him at his word. When your family numbers in the tens or hundreds of thousands you may nor be able to know even a fraction of them. We don't even know that the city in the background is actually Shi Kahr. It's based on the appearance from the animated series but it may be a typical design for cities of that size. Vulcan cities may be much more homogenous that Earth cities. Spock's family may have fist settled there but they are now probably spread all over the planet.

 

[ComicGuy89]

I'm bringing this thread up to ask a simple question. While Pon Farr still confuses me like mad, I'll ignore that for now. What I want to know is, how did Kirk and company get away with tricking T'pau's entire party into thinking Kirk was dead? I'm not sure how pleased T'pau would be to know that there was no duel to the death after all, and that Bones tricked everyone into thinking Kirk died.

 

[MacLeod]

It might be splitting the line but people can die and be brought back say via defibrillator.

 

[JarodRussell]

It might be splitting the line but people can die and be brought back say via defibrillator.

Then they weren't dead, only their heart stopped.

 

[Ssosmcin]

T'Pau apparently seemed pretty okay about it considering she greased the wheels which let Kirk off the hook for violating orders to come to Vulcan. Honor and tradition were satisfied and she learned that Human friends were awesome to have. The outcome of the challenge would be no different had Kirk actually died and since he didn't, an upstanding Vulcan guy named Spock avoided going to the pokey.

Win-win. I'm sure T'Pau had a lot of crap covered up on her watch. This solution avoided repercussions that would have opened up their secret traditions to lot of people who wouldn't get it.

 

[Anwar]

They ended up revealing it to the general culture anyways. Probably they sucked it up and figured "Eh, being all secretive and stuff nearly got this innocent guy killed and would've messed up some major political stuff. We may as well just admit the truth and stop being babies over it."

 

[Melakon]

. . .I'm not sure how pleased T'pau would be to know that there was no duel to the death after all, and that Bones tricked everyone into thinking Kirk died.

As T'Pau had already bent the rules by allowing Kirk to compete ("our laws are not binding on thee"), I don't think she would have had any room to complain when it turned out Kirk's death was faked. It was McCoy's trick anyway, Kirk didn't know he'd been given a mickey. The worst that might have happened was a diplomatic protest.

 

[Silvercrest]

I'm not sure how pleased T'pau would be to know that there was no duel to the death after all

It's okay... even if she was displeased, she couldn't admit to it. That's an emotional response.

 

[Gojira]

A Starfleet captain who knows nothing about the culture of their fellow Federation co-founders is bad enough, but a Starfleet doctor who knows nothing about Vulcan physiology despite having a half-Vulcan crew member is just ridiculous.

.

Not just this episode but in the entire series this attidue bothers me. I would think that by the 23rd century a Doctor would have a breadth of knowledge about other humanoid species.

They should that Dr. Phlox on Enteprise seemd to be more knowledgeable about the physiology of other humanoid species.

 

[Timo]

I would think that by the 23rd century a Doctor would have a breadth of knowledge about other humanoid species.

It seems to me that by the 23rd century, an MD would have even narrower knowledge than today. Medicine is advancing so fast that it's basically impossible to be a general practitioner today; it might well take a minimum of three people with doctorates to adequately cover even Homo sapiens.

The only reason I think McCoy might be expected to know something about Vulcans is Spock being aboard. Apparently, the Vulcan is the only nonhuman on that ship - so Starfleet would do well to pick a doctor with at least some proficiency in handling Vulcans. But for all we know, they did, and that doctor was M'Benga; due to his rare specialization, he in turn was an inferior choice for treating the 429 humans, or for some other reason (lack of service years, say) couldn't become the CMO.

A smart organization might have given up on human doctors altogether, and only enrolled Denobulans or other species capable of coping with broader skill sets.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

A Starfleet captain who knows nothing about the culture of their fellow Federation co-founders is bad enough, but a Starfleet doctor who knows nothing about Vulcan physiology despite having a half-Vulcan crew member is just ridiculous.

.

Not just this episode but in the entire series this attidue bothers me. I would think that by the 23rd century a Doctor would have a breadth of knowledge about other humanoid species.

They should that Dr. Phlox on Enteprise seemd to be more knowledgeable about the physiology of other humanoid species.

As originally written, the Vulcans were a mysterious race that kept largely to themselves and didn't share much with outsiders. Even Spock didn't reveal everything there was to know about Vulcans.

It wasn't until ten or so episodes after "Amok Time" that the character of Dr. M'Benga was introduced as a physician that had studied on Vulcan for a while and was more familiar with Vulcan physiology than most Starfleet doctors (but even then, he may not have known everything about them).

By the time of TNG, though, Vulcans may have dropped their veil of secrecy and quite a bit about their biology had long since been made available in the Starfleet Medical database.

 

[Melakon]

With Spock as his patient though, McCoy was mostly experienced with a Vulcan-Human hybrid. He has to adapt when working on full Vulcans like Sarek. McCoy's specialty seems to be humans.

 

[Timo]

According to "Court Martial", his specialty is space psychology - a very useful skill to have on a five-year mission, and probably it makes him a good choice for Starfleet to replace the Piper/Dehner combo. Perhaps such concerns outweighed the need to care for Spock's well-being?

Timo Saloniemi