Amok Time doesn't make sense.

[Hando]

We have seen a precedent with Archer. An United Earth Starfleet captain who has no idea about the local interstellar neighborhood.

 

[T'Girl]

So T'Pring ... was taking a big risk that the victor of Spock's battle didn't decide to drag her along and make her live on the Enterprise anyway.

I think it was pretty obvious that originally Stonn was going to be T'Pring's choice for her champian, selecting Kirk was a spur of the moment decision. For all the reasons she would later mention, plus she wouldn't have to risk her lover.

A Starfleet captain who knows nothing about the culture of their fellow Federation co-founders is bad enough, but a Starfleet doctor who knows nothing about Vulcan physiology despite having a half-Vulcan crew member is just ridiculous.

Nothing is likely an over-statement. If there were 150 members in Picard's time, I personally figure there were something like 35 - 50 in Kirk's time. That Kirk would reasonable have more than a passing knowledge of all of them is unlikely. Even the one that produced his first officer.

And it's also unlikely that McCoy knew "nothing," he just didn't know everything. Which is probably the story with many Federation Member species.

And if you're tempted to counter that, taboo or not, Spock would have easily discussed it with his captain and best friend, then you need to rewatch "Amok Time."

I have found it odd through the years, that fans seem to assume that as soon as Kirk and McCoy returned to the Enterprise, they immediately spread the intimate details of pon farr to the entire galaxy. As Spock's friends they both would have kept their mouth's shut on the matter, if you choose your friends carefully, you can trust them with your secrets.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I still don't buy that the Captain was completely ignorant of the cultural history of the species of one of his own crewmembers. How could he have graduated from Starfleet Academy having failed his Xenoanthropology paper?

Again: when "Amok Time" was written, we had no idea how secretive this peculiar and distant species was.

 

[TheSubCommander]

^ In TOS, Vulcan culture would not have been taught at Starfleet Academy because the Vulcans did not discuss such things with "outworlders." Same with Vulcan sexual practices.

And if you're tempted to counter that, taboo or not, Spock would have easily discussed it with his captain and best friend, then you need to rewatch "Amok Time."

In TOS, there was not a Vulcan around every corner like there was in some of the spinoffs.

Agreed. Not to mention that while T'Pol might qualify as a precedent, in the times of Enterprise, it was even more of an era of "cowboy diplomacy" and who knows WHAT Archer left of out the "official" report. Also, that era also establishes a great distrust between Vulcans and humans, and that undoubtedly continued even into the TOS era. Also, not many Wulcans served alongside humans, and until T'Pol, it was generally assumed Spock was one of the first Vulcans to serve to do so. Even in TOS, for the USS Intrepid was crewed by exclusively Vulcans.

Bottom line: do I buy Kirk not knowing the specifics of Vulcan mating? Totally.

 

[Nerys Myk]

True, and remember most times the Enterprise was mentioned as being a "Earth ship." Spock was apparently the only alien on board and there was no indication of "founding members" of the Federation. And Starfleet seemed to be Earth-centric (United Earth Space Probe Agency, for example). Most of what fans know about the Feds and the Vulcans came much later in the sequel series.

Of course in the "Earth Ship" and UESPA episodes there was no Federation. The Enterprise was an Earth ship. Star Trek was still evolving back then.

 

[scotpens]

I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...

"Smashy crushers"? Is that a Kiwi thing?

 

[Gary7]

Personally, I thought it stupid for Kirk to get wrapped up in it. Sure, he doesn't want to lose his first officer (thinking Stonn would kill him), but then to have his first officer kill him? Fight to the death. And if he gets lucky and wins? Either way he loses. ILLOGICAL. But McCoy saved the day, slipping him a neural paralyzer. Knocked him out, simulated death. Even still, Kirk could have started to lose consciousness at the wrong moment and then Spock would have decapitated him once his guard was down. And no, the neural paralyzer wasn't a Kirk/Bones collaboration--no dialog to support it. He was on a path of losing either way. Really stupid.

I can't stand this episode and never watch it, although if forced I'd pick this one over "And The Children Shall Lead."

 

[TorontoTrekker]

It is only in the much later "Cloud Minders" that Spock speaks of a seven-year cycle, but there he merely half-heartedly nods at Droxine's belief that "Vulcans only take a mate every seven years". He doesn't sound as if he were saying he swaps wives every seven years, so this reads more like he's saying he can choose a wife once in his life, with opportunities coming up only every seven years. After getting properly hitched, he's free of the cycle, and probably has very logical sex thrice a day and five times a night throughout the rest of his life, except when he feels like having a chocolate instead.

That's a good idea, but it's contradicted later on (and there's nothing in "Amok Time" to support that, either). At the beginning of the Voyager episode "Alice" (I can't believe that I'm citing Voyager, never mind one of my least favourite episodes - but it happens to be showing on Space as I type this), Paris and Kim are trying to guess Tuvok's age, and Paris makes a reference to Tuvok's 11th pon farr having taken place in 2304 (or something to that effect - I didn't know when the episode started that I'd be posting in this thread, or I would have paid closer attention to the dialogue).

But pon farr might be something that Vulcans who don't have access to logical sex thrice a day and five times a night (nice turn of phrase, BTW ) suffer from, like an addict who can't get a fix for an extended period.

Hm, the ever-logical Vulcans are secret sex addicts...

I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...

"Smashy crushers"? Is that a Kiwi thing?

I took it as a Galaxy Quest reference.

 

[Lt. Uhura-Brown]

I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...

"Smashy crushers"? Is that a Kiwi thing?

I took it as a Galaxy Quest reference.

Indeed it was.

 

[RandyS]

I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...

"Smashy crushers"? Is that a Kiwi thing?

I assumed it meant Crusher's great-great grandma running around smashing stuff.

 

[Forbin]

"Smashy Crusher" was, in fact, a nickname Beverly's great-great-grandma picked up during a pub crawl one winter weekend.

 

[Marsden]

I understood GQ, but they were Chompers.

Smashy Crusher should be a new rock band!

I think Amok Time makes perfect sense.

Personally, I thought it stupid for Kirk to get wrapped up in it. Sure, he doesn't want to lose his first officer (thinking Stonn would kill him), but then to have his first officer kill him? Fight to the death. And if he gets lucky and wins? Either way he loses. ILLOGICAL. But McCoy saved the day, slipping him a neural paralyzer. Knocked him out, simulated death. Even still, Kirk could have started to lose consciousness at the wrong moment and then Spock would have decapitated him once his guard was down. And no, the neural paralyzer wasn't a Kirk/Bones collaboration--no dialog to support it. He was on a path of losing either way. Really stupid.

Gary, did you listen to the episode?

MCCOY: You can't do it, Jim.
KIRK: I can't?
MCCOY: No. She said their laws and customs were not binding on you.
KIRK: And you said Spock might not be able to handle him. If I can knock Spock out without really hurting him
MCCOY: In this climate? If the heat doesn't get you, the thin air will. You can't do it!
KIRK: If I get into any trouble, I'll quit. And Spock wins, and honour is satisfied.
MCCOY: Jim, listen, if you
KIRK: Bones. He's my first officer and my friend. I disregarded Starfleet orders to bring him here. Another thing, that's T'Pau of Vulcan. All of Vulcan in one package. How can I back out in front of her?
T'PAU: It is done. Kirk, decide.
KIRK: I accept the challenge.
T'PAU: Here begins the act of combat for possession of the woman, T'Pring. As it was at the time of the beginning, so it is now. Bring forth the lirpa.
(They are presented with wicked-looking half moon blades set in a wooden shaft, with a counterweight at the other end.)
T'PAU: If both survive the lirpa, combat will continue with the ahn woon.
KIRK: What do you mean, if both survive?
T'PAU: This combat is to the death.
KIRK: Now wait a minute, ma'am. Who said anything about a fight to the death?
MCCOY: These men are friends. To force them to fight until one of them is killed
T'PAU: I can forgive such a display only once. Challenge was given and lawfully accepted. It has begun. Let no one interfere.
(And so the fight begins, first with a trial of brute strength, then a good swing by Spock slices open Kirk's tunic and cuts his chest. It is clear that the first officer will kill his captain, given the chance. When Kirk is down and unarmed, Spock goes in for the final blow.)
MCCOY: Spock! No!
(And Kirk rolls away just in time, then disarms Spock.)
T'PAU: Kroykah!
MCCOY: Is this Vulcan chivalry? The air's too hot and thin for Kirk. He's not used to it.
T'PAU: The air is the air. What can be done?
MCCOY: (holding up a hypo) I can compensate for the atmosphere and the temperature with this. At least it'll give Kirk a fighting chance.
T'PAU: Thee may proceed.
MCCOY: You're going to have to kill him, Jim.
KIRK: Kill Spock? That's not what I came to Vulcan for, is it? What's that?
MCCOY: It's a tri-ox compound. It'll help you breathe. Now be careful!
KIRK: Sound medical advice.

So, Bones did save the day, but Kirk didn't know anything about "to the death" until after he agreed. Talk about fine print, right? He has no intention of killing anyone.

KIRK: If I get into any trouble, I'll quit. And Spock wins, and honour is satisfied.

KIRK: Now wait a minute, ma'am. Who said anything about a fight to the death?

Bones took a calculated risk, but he was against the wall, should he stand and do nothing? So he actually allowed Kirk to "quit" by drugging him. Honor was satisfied and no one died. The dialogue is quite clear.

KIRK: Blame McCoy. That was no tri-ox compound he shot me with. He slipped in a neural paralyser. Knocked me out, simulated death.

If Bones told Kirk what he was doing:
1. Kirk would be dishonest.
2. The Vulcans would have heard and who knows what law would apply at that point.
The big guy with the big ax was ready to split McCoy from crown to groin if he interfered.

(Actually, I don't know that last part, I just read that in a Conan book and like throwing it in whenever I can.)

 

[Redfern]

And for all we know, maybe Kirk technically "flat lined" due to the drug and thus could be considered "dead" by the ancient laws. He was beamed up to the ship rather quickly, so we can only assume McCoy was able to restart his heart and breathing before brain damage set in.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[danellis]

And for all we know, maybe Kirk technically "flat lined" due to the drug and thus could be considered "dead" by the ancient laws. He was beamed up to the ship rather quickly, so we can only assume McCoy was able to restart his heart and breathing before brain damage set in.

Sincerely,

Bill

"Deaths" like that are ten a penny in StarTrek

dJE

 

[Marsden]

And for all we know, maybe Kirk technically "flat lined" due to the drug and thus could be considered "dead" by the ancient laws. He was beamed up to the ship rather quickly, so we can only assume McCoy was able to restart his heart and breathing before brain damage set in.

Sincerely,

Bill

Really, a shot of stokaline and all better!

 

[Greg Cox]

It was far from clear at the time that "Amok Time" was written that Vulcans were "co-founders" of anything. We had never seen a Vulcan other than Spock and had no clear idea whether anyone else on the Enterprise had, either.

I know that's hard to imagine forty-odd years later, but Vulcans were rather mysterious and exotic (to use a somewhat politically incorrect but useful word) and little if anything had been said about any alien members of the Federation other than Vulcans. Sturgeon was an imaginative science fiction writer and he approached the Vulcans as if they were an alien species, rather than simply a national or ethnic grouping (the latter being the way Trek has chosen for the most part to treat alien life since) who lived on an isolated planet. He thought in sf terms, IOW, rather than TV.

Exactly. If you go back and watch the early episodes, Kirk and the crew tend to treat Spock as a very mysterious and exotic curiosity. One gets the impression that Spock is the first Vulcan most of them have ever met. "Tell me about the moons on your planet, Mister Spock." Etcetera.

And the idea that the Vulcans are secretive and reclusive never really went away. As late as The Search for Spock, Kirk and the higher-ups at Starfleet are apparently unaware of that whole "katra" business . . . and seem somewhat skeptical about "Vulcan mysticism" in general.

Heck, in "Journey to Babel," McCoy doesn't know what a sehlat is either . . .

 

[Anwar]

What about the Starfleet Doctor onboard who interned at Vulcan? Surely HE would've known what was going on. Doctor M'Benga.

 

[Timo]

Not necessarily, as he would have been under rather controlled conditions and might well have been denied access to patients who might have compromised Vulcan secrets.

In any case, it's beyond miraculous that McCoy would know the physiologies of two species well enough to operate - most humans today fail to master one despite extensive training. There are probably specialists in Starfleet for Vulcan and Klingon medicine, but there's no conceivable way Starfleet could afford to place them aboard the Enterprise, and no particular motivation to do so.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gov Kodos]

And M'Benga may have been brought aboard at the urging of McCoy as a result of the events of Amok Time and Journey to Babel.

 

[Elder Knight]

... we can only assume McCoy was able to restart his [Kirk's] heart and breathing before brain damage set in.

Sincerely,

Bill

It must've been a close call there -- that would explain Kirk's cluelessness in "Trouble With Tribbles" (maybe that was the next episode chronologically): he was still regaining brain function.