Alternate versions of characters you prefer to the "real" one

[Jayson1]

Is it just me? Tuvix was more than a little creepy.

I think that might have more to do with how he was created than his personality. I mean he was a blend of Tuvok and Neelix. It's a kind of person that I would think would be hard for people to know how to relate two because humans are created in a different way.

Jason

 

[Discofan]

I think that might have more to do with how he was created than his personality. I mean he was a blend of Tuvok and Neelix. It's a kind of person that I would think would be hard for people to know how to relate two because humans are created in a different way.

Jason

Also as far as Kes is concerned, he was a mix of her mentor and lover. That's a rare combination.

 

[Refuge]

I think that might have more to do with how he was created than his personality. I mean he was a blend of Tuvok and Neelix. It's a kind of person that I would think would be hard for people to know how to relate two because humans are created in a different way.

Jason

As a woman I put myself in Kes' situation. It felt wrong and icky that Tuvix wanted her. He was like a parasite.

 

[Discofan]

As a woman I put myself in Kes' situation. It felt wrong and icky that Tuvix wanted her. He was like a parasite.

A "parasite" that was better at their jobs than both Neelix and Tuvok. I wish I could hire a parasite like that!!

 

[Refuge]

Yet still utterly unappealing. He was a coward.

 

[Jayson1]

As a woman I put myself in Kes' situation. It felt wrong and icky that Tuvix wanted her. He was like a parasite.

I can see that. It must be weird also for Tuvix to have those feelings. He is created as a adult with already established feelings and memories and had no childhood of his own. He cares about everyone on the ship yet they don't feel the same about him as he does for them. To me the complexity of character and situation and the dark ending is what makes it such a good episode and it's also why even today people are still interested in the character and episode despite it just being a stand alone story with a guest actor.

Jason

 

[Discofan]

Yet still utterly unappealing. He was a coward.

Though definitely more appealing than a cold-blooded killer.

 

[Refuge]

I can see that. It must be weird also for Tuvix to have those feelings. He is created as a adult with already established feelings and memories and had no childhood of his own. He cares about everyone on the ship yet they don't feel the same about him as he does for them. To me the complexity of character and situation and the dark ending is what makes it such a good episode and it's also why even today people are still interested in the character and episode despite it just being a stand alone story with a guest actor.

Jason

I agree it was a notable episode. I couldn't connect with him though. He was a transporter accident who would've happily replaced the lives of two others just to continue his twisted version of existence.

 

[Refuge]

Though definitely more appealing than a cold-blooded killer.

Sorry but I didn't find him sympathetic or appealing in any way. To me he was a freak that was a placeholder for two others. Once the transporter mixup was resolved his molecules went back to where they belonged.

 

[Jayson1]

I agree it was a notable episode. I couldn't connect with him though. He was a transporter accident who would've happily replaced the lives of two others just to continue his twisted version of existence.

What would have taken the episode into a even deeper angle is if they could have accessed both Tuvok and Nellix's thoughts about what to do. What if they didn't want Janeway to kill him on their behalf or what if Tuvok was against it but Neelix was okay with it because he wanted to be with Kes, again. Missed chance at the end when we don't get Tuvok and Neelix's thoughts on what happened. Also was Tuvix's fear his or was that something that came from the Neelix side yet his forgiveness for doing it might have come from the Tuvok side of him.

Jason

 

[Refuge]

What would have taken the episode into a even deeper angle is if they could have accessed both Tuvok and Nellix's thoughts about what to do. What if they didn't want Janeway to kill him on their behalf or what if Tuvok was against it but Neelix was okay with it because he wanted to be with Kes, again. Missed chance at the end when we don't get Tuvok and Neelix's thoughts on what happened. Also was Tuvix's fear his or was that something that came from the Neelix side yet his forgiveness for doing it might have come from the Tuvok side of him.

Jason

That was a major part of Janeway's responsibility. Tuvok and Neelix did not have a voice of their own. Now if they really wanted to they could have recreated the accident and tried to reform Tuivx but clearly they were not going to do that. Remember Tuvok had a family and Neelix was a survivor. Both owned their lives, experienced the history of their lives, and valued their lives.

Tuvix deserved the time he had like the orchid within him. No more.

 

[Discofan]

Tuvix was no more responsible for the fate of Tuvok or Neelix than a baby whose mother was born while giving birth to him is responsible for her death. Tuvix was a sentient being born in an unusual way as many before him in the franchise,( intelligent nanites created by Weasley, intelligence created by the Enterprise itself (Season 7 of TNG), the exocomps, Data, Lal...etc) they all had bizarre origins yet, given their status of sentience they were ALL treated with respect by the captain of the ship.

Tuvix is (unless my memory doesn't serve me well) the ONLY exception, and he had committed no crime. He was killed practically on a whim of the captain, no ethical debate with the senior members of the crew, nothing.

I think that sucks and it's very un-star-trek-like.

 

[Refuge]

Tuvix wasn't born he was a transporter accident and when it came down to it he was keeping Neelix and Tuvok from their lives.

I was terribly relieved and pleased to see him go.

 

[Discofan]

Dr. Marr was sanctioned for killing the Crystalline Entity that was a lot less human-looking than Tuvix and responsible for countless deaths, yet nothing happened to Janeway for killing Tuvix. Maybe he should have killed a crewmember and he would have been then condemned to the horrible penalty of being confined to quarters for the rest of the trip...

 

[Refuge]

Tuvix isn't dead, half of him is in Neelix and half of him is in Tuvok.

 

[Discofan]

Tuvix isn't dead, half of him is in Neelix and half of him is in Tuvok.

In that case, the Chicken in my Paella isn't dead either... Part of it is now in my stomach.

 

[Jayson1]

Tuvix wasn't born he was a transporter accident and when it came down to it he was keeping Neelix and Tuvok from their lives.

I was terribly relieved and pleased to see him go.

It can be argued that Tuvok and Neelix died in transport. I mean Tuvix wasn't created in the traditional sense but that wouldn't be unexpected I suspect in a universe filled with aliens. In fact you could say his life was created no different than how those aliens did in "Ashes to Ashes" He was created out of dead people DNA and was turned into a new life, who still also had leftover memories of the people he was created out of. I guess the Frankenstein monster might also be a possible example in comparison. The difference is through the transporter they were able to basically bring people back from the dead. Also wasn't he a part plant as well? I recall that the plants Neelix had was what caused the transporter accident to happen. One other episode it reminds me of is the TNG ep were RIker and Pulaski kill their own clones which to me seemed like murder as well. I know they were going for the abortion methphor but I assumed the clones were developed enough already to be considered self aware and alive.

Jason

 

[Discofan]

It can be argued that Tuvok and Neelix died in transport. I mean Tuvix wasn't created in the traditional sense but that wouldn't be unexpected I suspect in a universe filled with aliens. In fact you could say his life was created no different than how those aliens did in "Ashes to Ashes" He was created out of dead people DNA and was turned into a new life, who still also had leftover memories of the people he was created out of. I guess the Frankenstein monster might also be a possible example in comparison. The difference is through the transporter they were able to basically bring people back from the dead. Also wasn't he a part plant as well? I recall that the plants Neelix had was what caused the transporter accident to happen. One other episode it reminds me of is the TNG ep were RIker and Pulaski kill their own clones which to me seemed like murder as well. I know they were going for the abortion methphor but I assumed the clones were developed enough already to be considered self aware and alive.

Jason

Yeah, I remember thinking that the casual way that Riker phasered his clone and then with a nod from Pulaski hers as well, was worthy of cavemen and not purportedly civilized people from the future. The indifferent brutality of it was a sad reminder of the worst days of Nazism. To think that they then spend an entire episode debating the humanity of Data... What were the writers thinking!?

 

[Refuge]

It can be argued that Tuvok and Neelix died in transport. I mean Tuvix wasn't created in the traditional sense but that wouldn't be unexpected I suspect in a universe filled with aliens. In fact you could say his life was created no different than how those aliens did in "Ashes to Ashes" He was created out of dead people DNA and was turned into a new life, who still also had leftover memories of the people he was created out of. I guess the Frankenstein monster might also be a possible example in comparison. The difference is through the transporter they were able to basically bring people back from the dead. Also wasn't he a part plant as well? I recall that the plants Neelix had was what caused the transporter accident to happen. One other episode it reminds me of is the TNG ep were RIker and Pulaski kill their own clones which to me seemed like murder as well. I know they were going for the abortion methphor but I assumed the clones were developed enough already to be considered self aware and alive.

Jason

I must admit even in my relatively brief time here at trekbbs I have read the various arguments explaining Tuvix. My personal understanding comes from the transporter aspect too. When individuals are transported their presence - clothes and all is reformed from one station to another. There are only ever those molecules at play. I suspect the plant was more like a chemical catalyst. However Tuvix was not a child born of two parents. That parallel never convinces because he fully replaced two individuals. He was a mashed up, compacted being made of their 'molecules'. They remained existent, within him, they were him. Once the transporter anomaly was fixed it enabled the original action of transport to be completed as was intended resulting in Tuvok and Neelix taking their forms as was their right and expectation and their priority. Whatever freak transient existence Tuvix had was always a placeholder until (and if) the norm was returned. Tuvix was a parasite to two hosts.

 

[Jayson1]

I must admit even in my relatively brief time here at trekbbs I have read the various arguments explaining Tuvix. My personal understanding comes from the transporter aspect too. When individuals are transported their presence - clothes and all is reformed from one station to another. There are only ever those molecules at play. I suspect the plant was more like a chemical catalyst. However Tuvix was not a child born of two parents. That parallel never convinces because he fully replaced two individuals. He was a mashed up, compacted being made of their 'molecules'. They remained existent, within him, they were him. Once the transporter anomaly was fixed it enabled the original action of transport to be completed as was intended resulting in Tuvok and Neelix taking their forms as was their right and expectation and their priority. Whatever freak transient existence Tuvix had was always a placeholder until (and if) the norm was returned. Tuvix was a parasite to two hosts.

The problem though is even though you could restore the original people you have to destroy the new life that was created out of their DNA. It's a unique situation were you can't really win no matter what choice you make because someone has to die no matter what. It's a Koboyashi Maru of transporter accidents. The reason why I would side with Tuvik is he exist and that is a fact. Tuvok and Neelix being brought back to life is only a theory and you don't even know it will work. The other thing is with Tuvik alive that gives you time to maybe find another option such as downloading Tuvik into a android body or a hologram like the Phage woman the doctor fell in love with. I even wonder if Tuvik would have a Katra like Tuvok I assume does since he is Vulcan and then you mind meld his consciousness into a cloned body.

Jason