ALtered or Parallel Timeline????

[TrekGuide.com]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

The point is that what you, the viewer, believe to be a "single timeline" is actually the personal timeline of the viewpoint character in a particular episode, who moves from one timeline to another, but remembers both.

You saw Yar and Spock changing history, then remaining in that new timeline, so for those specific people, yes, it seems like they have "altered" their "own" pasts (i.e., the events they are witnessing are different from the ones they remember), but for everyone else in the universe, events have only happened once, with only one outcome, whether they are in the original or new timeline.

But than why did Guinan say things werent right? When Tasha went back in the past the altered Universe continued to exist???Why even change anything at all? If it still exists. I thought they sent the Enterprise C back to restore the timeline??

Well, if you have seen all 730 episodes of "Star Trek," then you know that Guinan's life is a convoluted timeline unto itself:

Around 1900 in San Francisco ["Time's Arrow, Part II"], Guinan from Timeline A, met Picard from Timeline B, who had already met both Guinan from Timeline B, as well as seen Lt. Yar from Timeline B die. They spent several hours trapped in a cave, presumably discussing time paradoxes.

Around 2300 ["Star Trek Generations"], after her world, El-Auria, was destroyed by the Borg, Guinan and Soran were briefly trapped in the timeless Nexus, where Guinan again met Picard from Timeline B (after Soran destroyed the sun and the crew of the Enterprise-D was killed), and Picard again informed Guinan that she was aboard the Enterprise-D with him.

After Guinan was rescued from the Nexus by the Enterprise-B, she would again meet Picard around 2360 in both Timeline A and Timeline B, where their relationship would be "beyond friendship and beyond family." ["The Best of Both Worlds."] (Picard's first meeting of Guinan in 2360 must have been strange for him, since Guinan had already met his future self twice.)

Later in Timeline A, during the Federation-Klingon war ["Yesterday's Enterprise"], Guinan looks around at the Warship Enterprise-D, the uniforms, and people, and realizes that the crew, and especially Picard, on this ship are not going to be the ones she has already met in 1900 and 2300. So when the Enterprise-C appears in the time rift, she sees the opportunity to "restore" the timeline of the Picard from Timeline B whom she has already met twice.

So, in 2366 of Timeline A, Guinan convinces Lt. Yar to go back with the Enterprise-C and change history, thus creating Timeline B in 2346, averting the Federation-Klingon war, and allowing Guinan then to meet the same Picard of Timeline B for a third time.

Later in Timeline B, Picard would meet Guinan for his second time (her first time) when he goes back to Timeline A in the causality loop ["Times Arrow, Part II"].

Then, after Soran destroys the sun and kills the Enterprise-D crew ["Star Trek Generations"] Picard from Timeline B meets Guinan for his third time (her second time) inside the timeless Nexus. She tells him about Kirk and how to change the past, so Picard and Kirk then go into Picard's past and stop Soran from destroying the sun and the Enterprise-D, thus creating Timeline C.

Thirty years later in Timeline C, Admiral Janeway steals a Klingon time machine and goes back in time to save the Voyager ["Endgame"], thus creating Timeline D. A year later, Admiral Janeway of Timeline D sends Picard and the Enterprise-E to Romulus to meet Shinzon ["Star Trek: Nemesis"].

Ten years later in Timeline D, Ambassador Spock and Captain Nero are sucked through a black hole into Timeline E, where Nero destroys the U.S.S. Kelvin and planet Vulcan.

So, to answer your question, Guinan in Timeline A had already met Picard from Timeline B twice during events seen in "Yesterday's Enterprise," so she had her own personal motives for sending the Enterprise-C back in time to change history.

(For the sake of simplicity, I have ignored a dozen other alternate timelines from various episodes, but you get the idea.)

 

[FailedLurker]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

I think there are too many differences that date back too early for the arrival of the Narada to be the point of divergence. We saw that Spock and Nero went through the same anomaly but arrived at different times, so it's possible that something wound up back much earlier to cause an earlier divergence. Or they just traveled to a pre-existing parallel timeline. Personally I prefrer the latter explaination.

 

[Tosk]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

When it comes to visual changes, it's hard to argue what is actually altered by the time travel and what is not. Ambassador Spock recognises Kirk and Scotty, so we have to assume that some things look they way they always did, they just seem different to us.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Technically it's actually a branching of the timeline that follows on from the previous timeline and turns back on itself:

The old continuity still happened- then this happened *after* it.

It's like...

>--ENT--->---60s TOS--->---TNG--->---DS9--->--VOY-->---\--->24th century folks except Spock--->--->
*************************************************\
*************************************************/
*/----<-----<----<--Spock & Nero---<-----<----<-----<-----/
/
\
*\---->---Abrams-TOS--->

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

The point is that what you, the viewer, believe to be a "single timeline" is actually the personal timeline of the viewpoint character in a particular episode, who moves from one timeline to another, but remembers both.

You saw Yar and Spock changing history, then remaining in that new timeline, so for those specific people, yes, it seems like they have "altered" their "own" pasts (i.e., the events they are witnessing are different from the ones they remember), but for everyone else in the universe, events have only happened once, with only one outcome, whether they are in the original or new timeline.

But than why did Guinan say things werent right? When Tasha went back in the past the altered Universe continued to exist???Why even change anything at all? If it still exists. I thought they sent the Enterprise C back to restore the timeline??

Well, if you have seen all 730 episodes of "Star Trek," then you know that Guinan's life is a convoluted timeline unto itself:

Around 1900 in San Francisco ["Time's Arrow, Part II"], Guinan from Timeline A, met Picard from Timeline B, who had already met both Guinan from Timeline B, as well as seen Lt. Yar from Timeline B die. They spent several hours trapped in a cave, presumably discussing time paradoxes.

Around 2300 ["Star Trek Generations"], after her world, El-Auria, was destroyed by the Borg, Guinan and Soran were briefly trapped in the timeless Nexus, where Guinan again met Picard from Timeline B (after Soran destroyed the sun and the crew of the Enterprise-D was killed), and Picard again informed Guinan that she was aboard the Enterprise-D with him.

After Guinan was rescued from the Nexus by the Enterprise-B, she would again meet Picard around 2360 in both Timeline A and Timeline B, where their relationship would be "beyond friendship and beyond family." ["The Best of Both Worlds."] (Picard's first meeting of Guinan in 2360 must have been strange for him, since Guinan had already met his future self twice.)

Later in Timeline A, during the Federation-Klingon war ["Yesterday's Enterprise"], Guinan looks around at the Warship Enterprise-D, the uniforms, and people, and realizes that the crew, and especially Picard, on this ship are not going to be the ones she has already met in 1900 and 2300. So when the Enterprise-C appears in the time rift, she sees the opportunity to "restore" the timeline of the Picard from Timeline B whom she has already met twice.

So, in 2366 of Timeline A, Guinan convinces Lt. Yar to go back with the Enterprise-C and change history, thus creating Timeline B in 2346, averting the Federation-Klingon war, and allowing Guinan then to meet the same Picard of Timeline B for a third time.

Later in Timeline B, Picard would meet Guinan for his second time (her first time) when he goes back to Timeline A in the causality loop ["Times Arrow, Part II"].

Then, after Soran destroys the sun and kills the Enterprise-D crew ["Star Trek Generations"] Picard from Timeline B meets Guinan for his third time (her second time) inside the timeless Nexus. She tells him about Kirk and how to change the past, so Picard and Kirk then go into Picard's past and stop Soran from destroying the sun and the Enterprise-D, thus creating Timeline C.

Thirty years later in Timeline C, Admiral Janeway steals a Klingon time machine and goes back in time to save the Voyager ["Endgame"], thus creating Timeline D. A year later, Admiral Janeway of Timeline D sends Picard and the Enterprise-E to Romulus to meet Shinzon ["Star Trek: Nemesis"].

Ten years later in Timeline D, Ambassador Spock and Captain Nero are sucked through a black hole into Timeline E, where Nero destroys the U.S.S. Kelvin and planet Vulcan.

So, to answer your question, Guinan in Timeline A had already met Picard from Timeline B twice during events seen in "Yesterday's Enterprise," so she had her own personal motives for sending the Enterprise-C back in time to change history.

(For the sake of simplicity, I have ignored a dozen other alternate timelines from various episodes, but you get the idea.)

So same universe but altered events at the end of TNG and all their movies??? Thats what Im getting from this anyways. Or are we watching a seperate divergent universe during the TNG movies and not the same Picard we watched from season 1.

 

[Who_Trek]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Divergent Universe. I don't think they would make a movie that would wipe out everything that had gone before.

 

[Mr. Chubbykins]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

According to the Star Trek "rules", if you know what I mean, all of the events depicted in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY will never happen.

In Trek, parallel universes like the Mirror Universe continue alongside the "standard" universe. Events that happen there don't replace those that happen in the "standard" universe.

Alternate timelines occur when a time-travel event takes place, like the stranding of Tasha Yar in the past in "Yesterday's Enterprise". The new reality is the "standard" universe. In the new film, it was an alternate timeline that was created, not a parallel universe.

And that is why I am very unhappy about the new film.

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

According to the Star Trek "rules", if you know what I mean, all of the events depicted in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY will never happen.

In Trek, parallel universes like the Mirror Universe continue alongside the "standard" universe. Events that happen there don't replace those that happen in the "standard" universe.

Alternate timelines occur when a time-travel event takes place, like the stranding of Tasha Yar in the past in "Yesterday's Enterprise". The new reality is the "standard" universe. In the new film, it was an alternate timeline that was created, not a parallel universe.

And that is why I am very unhappy about the new film.

This is what Im talking about. So TNG was an Alternate timeline from that point on?? Which means there really is no original prime Universe because its been changed to many times. But Im not sure about this film. Is it an entirely new divergent timeline seperate from the "prime" timeline. Thats whats confusing.

 

[Deks]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Parallel universe means a reality in which the laws of physics can be fundamentally different compared to our own and thus result in a completely different playing field.

Alternate universe means a reality that is similar to ours but with different events that took place throughout the universe and people's lives (different choices, different results, but still fundamentally same laws of physics.

Altered would mean that an existing universe has been changed and new course of events will be taking place.
If Uhura said 'alternate', then the reality in which the movie takes place is a separate one compared to the one that has Vulcan intact.

Meaning that the future Spock might have came from a universe that is a parallel to the one we saw on screen prior to the movie with just subtle differences to it, or that could be a carbon copy of the 'original' one ... in effect ending up in the copy universe but not the 'original' one.

Spock came from the 'original time-line' and ended up in an alternate universe and it's past.
Spock came from the 'original time-line' and was protected by the changes using temporal shield technology or while traveling to the past experienced a protection similar to the one Enterprise-E did in FC, and as a result the 'original timeline' was replaced with this one in which events will pan out likely in a slightly different fashion because Vulcan was destroyed.

Numerous possibilities to consider.

Also, while I find it a bit idiotic that a single supernova would affect an entire galaxy ... in Trek, such a phenomenon could have been artifitially augmented to cause a shockwave that use subspace to 'interact' with other stars in the Galaxy causing a chain reaction of some kind.

And just because Vulcan was annihilated, it's quite possible that the remaining 10 000 surviving Vulcans can still come up with a solution in the future for this supernova 'mishap'.
The race still survives ... and Tuvok's parents for example could have been among them.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

So same universe but altered events at the end of TNG and all their movies??? Thats what Im getting from this anyways. Or are we watching a seperate divergent universe during the TNG movies and not the same Picard we watched from season 1.

The Picard and Yar in Season 1 of TNG were the Picard and Yar of Timeline B, which was created by Lt. Yar and the Enterprise-C going back in time from Timeline A ["Yesterday's Enterprise"].

The Picard we saw in "Star Trek: Nemesis" (Timeline D) was a different Picard than Admiral Janeway remembered from Timeline C, because in Admiral Janeway's original future ["Endgame"], she never would have met Picard because the Voyager was still in the Delta Quadrant. When Admiral Janeway from Timeline C changed history, she created Timeline D, where her younger self WOULD meet Picard and order him to Romulus.

(The Picard in Timeline C is the same Picard from Timeline B, who traveled back in time from the Nexus to replace his counterpart in Timeline C and stop Soran from destroying the sun.)

So from the start of TNG to the end of "Star Trek: Nemesis," we have seen at least three different Picards and Enterprise crews in four different alternate timelines.

And we have now seen four Spocks in four different timelines: Commander Spock in Timeline A [TOS], Ambassador Spock in Timeline B ["Unification, Part II"], Spock Prime from Timeline D and Quinto-Spock from Timeline E ["Star Trek XI"].

All of these are alternate timelines, diverging from one another due to time travel alterations, creating similar but diverent duplicates of the familiar characters.

As Worf saw in "Parallels," there are many alternate timelines co-existing side-by-side, not one timeline erasing itself.

This is NOT "Back to the Future." in "Star Trek," the time traveler does NOT go into his own past and "erase" himself in a paradox. Time travelers in "Trek" create new, alternate timelines, but they continue to exist. They don't "overwrite" themselves.

Think of timelines like a series of identical rooms connected by doors. If you leave one room, where Vulcan exists, and you walk through a door (i.e., a black hole) into the next room, and the door locks shut behind you, then you can destroy Vulcan in Room No. 2, but that has no effect on Vulcan in Room No. 1. They are different rooms, and you've just walked from one to the other. The rooms don't replace each other.

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

So same universe but altered events at the end of TNG and all their movies??? Thats what Im getting from this anyways. Or are we watching a seperate divergent universe during the TNG movies and not the same Picard we watched from season 1.

The Picard and Yar in Season 1 of TNG were the Picard and Yar of Timeline B, which was created by Lt. Yar and the Enterprise-C going back in time from Timeline A ["Yesterday's Enterprise"].

The Picard we saw in "Star Trek: Nemesis" (Timeline D) was a different Picard than Admiral Janeway remembered from Timeline C, because in Admiral Janeway's original future ["Endgame"], she never would have met Picard because the Voyager was still in the Delta Quadrant. When Admiral Janeway from Timeline C changed history, she created Timeline D, where her younger self WOULD meet Picard and order him to Romulus.

(The Picard in Timeline C is the same Picard from Timeline B, who traveled back in time from the Nexus to replace his counterpart in Timeline C and stop Soran from destroying the sun.)

So from the start of TNG to the end of "Star Trek: Nemesis," we have seen at least three different Picards and Enterprise crews in four different alternate timelines.

And we have now seen four Spocks in four different timelines: Commander Spock in Timeline A [TOS], Ambassador Spock in Timeline B ["Unification, Part II"], Spock Prime from Timeline D and Quinto-Spock from Timeline E ["Star Trek XI"].

All of these are alternate timelines, diverging from one another due to time travel alterations, creating similar but diverent duplicates of the familiar characters.

As Worf saw in "Parallels," there are many alternate timelines co-existing side-by-side, not one timeline erasing itself.

This is NOT "Back to the Future." in "Star Trek," the time traveler does NOT go into his own past and "erase" himself in a paradox. Time travelers in "Trek" create new, alternate timelines, but they continue to exist. They don't "overwrite" themselves.

Think of timelines like a series of identical rooms connected by doors. If you leave one room, where Vulcan exists, and you walk through a door (i.e., a black hole) into the next room, and the door locks shut behind you, then you can destroy Vulcan in Room No. 2, but that has no effect on Vulcan in Room No. 1. They are different rooms, and you've just walked from one to the other. The rooms don't replace each other.

I see. Thats what I was afraid of. Though I dont think thats what the producers are thinking.

So we havent seen a Trek story in the prime universe for some time. Hey that means Kirk is still alive.

 

[alicelouise]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

I say altered, because many things are still possible in a TOS,TNG,DS9,VOY, and ENT.

If there were any episodes there would have to be changes.

"Balance of Terror" well there would be NO doubt of who's blowing up those Earth outposts in a reimagined episode.
"Amok Time"? If T'Pring, Stonn, and T'Pau ended up being one if those 10,000 lucky Vulcans then..
"The Enterprise Incident" The Romulan Commander might have Uhura to deal with.

"The Cage/Menagerie" could have Kirk and his crew going to Talos IV.
"Space Seed" wouldn't have to be changed. Gary Mitchell could be brought back in "Where No Man has gone".

Tuvok and other future Vulcans could exist because their ancestors could be of the 10,000. Their personalies would be different. This would be owing to fact that they are a people who've suffered a great Diaspora/Holocaust. They might have some humility in their makeup.

Cardassians, Bajorans, Ferengi, and Borg? No problems. Of course the 1st contact with the Cards might been moved up. Though you couldn't rule it out in TOS.

The Romulan Empire? I think the Federation would have some contact with them. After the first events of the movie wouldn't the Feds inquire with the Praetor about Nero?

 

[TrekGuide.com]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Perhaps this would be a good time to review my previous thread on The Five Categories of Time Paradoxes. ...

The first Rule of Time Travel in Star Trek is: "There are no rules of time travel in Star Trek."

 

[Deks]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

The Federation had contact with the Romulan empire during the Earth/Romulan war (which happened after ENTERPRISE events but possibly prior to the Federation formation).
Subspace communications to be exact.
They wouldn't see each other, but they would have audio records ... and as such difference in dialects could have been apparent enough for the duration of the war with SF communicating with the Romulan government, or simply enough spouting insults over subspace ... so Uhura could have learned them later on.

Problem is ... the movies don't make an effort to explain these things.
Even though there are apparent 'plot holes' sometimes it would be nice to throw in a few extra minutes to explain why are some things happening and make them credible enough.

Oh wait ... I forgot ... using explanations that make sense is what the general population doen't want to see.

 

[alicelouise]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Deks, I have to disagree with you. In "Balance of Terror" Most of Kirk's crew looked flabbergasted when there was the first on screen gander of the Romulans.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

This is a divergent timeline where the original history up to 2387 and the obliteration of Romulus remains intact as we're familiar with it.

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

This is a divergent timeline where the original history up to 2387 and the obliteration of Romulus remains intact as we're familiar with it.

I cant see how everything changes so drastically though with the destruction of one ship. It was just an excuse to make so many changes. It would have been better to start Trek off from square one.

No matter how you slice it the movie exected time travel badly. If it had done it right we all wouldnt be speculating as much about it as we have.

Perhaps this would be a good time to review my previous thread on The Five Categories of Time Paradoxes. ...

The first Rule of Time Travel in Star Trek is: "There are no rules of time travel in Star Trek."

No reason though for the movie to make matters worse though.


I have now decided that the picard we have seen is the same one form the first epsiode of TNG. I dont think the writers intended us to watch four different Picards through that run of TNG and the films. I think the intention was that once things are set right the timeline flows unencumbered once again but with slight changes in its flow.

 

[Ayelbourne]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

I cant see how everything changes so drastically though with the destruction of one ship.

Butterfly Effect

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

I cant see how everything changes so drastically though with the destruction of one ship.

Butterfly Effect

Yeah. But its to the point where everything is changed drastically?? Right down to the attitudes and characteristics of ALL the main cast. Spock is more emotional, Kirk is more of a douche, Chekov has a worse accent, Scotty is comedy relief,
and McCoy now parts his hair on the wrong side.

Not to mention the ship has less resemblense to its former look. I have no problem with asthetics being updated for the sake of modern movie techniques. We can just pretend they were always that way. But the look of the Enterprise is wayyy out of whack with what it was.

Again it would have been less messy to just restart everything at square one, and not invovle mainstream Spock. I would have enjoyed a film like that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

I don't see why we are even having this discussion. The creators of this film have flat-out stated that the original timeline still exists and this is only an alternate one. Therefore, that's what it must be.