ALtered or Parallel Timeline????

[npsf3000]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Altered timeline - Things have changed for good.

Split (which i think this movie is) - New time line splits from old at point of time travelling interference.

Alternate Timeline - Different way things could of occured, same universe.

Alternate universe - completely seperate entity with its own time lines.

 

[DeafPoet]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

It doesn't really matter. New stories in the "old universe" aren't going to happen any time soon. The filmmakers were extremely generous to give us the excuse that they did. Is it an alternate timeline? Probably. Would it matter if it weren't? No.

Shatner is still badass as Kirk, Nimoy is still chilling yet warm as Spock, and Kelley is still funny yet human as Bones. We're not going to be doing Universe A Trek for a long while so it doesn't really matter. I've watched 6 or 7 TOS episodes since I saw the film Thusday night and I loved them more not less.

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Altered timeline - Things have changed for good.

Split (which i think this movie is) - New time line splits from old at point of time travelling interference.

Alternate Timeline - Different way things could of occured, same universe.

Alternate universe - completely seperate entity with its own time lines.

To many to chose from. To bad the movie coudlnt decide what it was.I should have made a beter poll.

So the timeline in TNG's "Yesterdays Enterprise" is an alternate timeline which reverted back into its other timeline?

 

[Lyon_Wonder]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

As I said in another forum, an alternate universe, as opposed to an altered timeline, allows for certain pre-Nero events like the Eugenics wars or other late 20th/early 21st century Earth events mentioned in TOS that didn’t occur in real life to change as well. If Trek XI is simply an altered timeline in the main universe, than events like the Eugenics wars occurring in the 1990s still stand.

 

[Lindley]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

It doesn't really matter. New stories in the "old universe" aren't going to happen any time soon.

Sure they will. They'll come from Pocket Books, as they have been for a while.

Granted, they're not canon, but many of them do have an internal continuity, and they're going to need a way to incorperate these events.

 

[DeafPoet]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

It doesn't really matter. New stories in the "old universe" aren't going to happen any time soon.

Sure they will. They'll come from Pocket Books, as they have been for a while.

Granted, they're not canon, but many of them do have an internal continuity, and they're going to need a way to incorperate these events.

I love the new Pocket stories, so I won't disagree. But they really only need to explain Spock's disappearance, and more importantly, Romulus'.

What I mean is they don't have to fuck up Universe A with this story. They only have to incorporate a few events. Events, mind you, that are still a few years off in the Pocket timeline.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

I think they went into the past of the Prime universe and altered it. Just as the Enterprise C altered events by going back in time.

I think you are misunderstanding the temporal mechanics involved.

Yes, Spock going into the past and being captured by the Romulans is just like Lt. Yar going into the past on the Enterprise-C and being captured by the Romulans.

In both cases, their travel to the past resulted in a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE that was DIFFERENT from the one they had come from.

In Yar's original timeline, the Federation was at war with the Klingons. By going back in time, she created a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE where the Federation was not at war, and in fact a Klingon officer served on the Enterprise-D.

In Spock's "original" timeline (in reality, his last 40 years were in the alternate timeline created by Lt. Yar on the Enterprise-C) the planet Vulcan still existed, Kirk's father had seen Kirk grow up, and Spock was estranged from his own father. With Spock and Nero going back in time to a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE, they changed all the events that they remembered from their own timeline.

When you talk about "altering your own timeline," you're talking about a "Back to the Future"-style paradox where you start fading away from photographs of yourself as you erase your own past.

Lt. Yar and Spock definitely didn't fade away. They were real people from real timelines with real pasts, who both happened to be in a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE creating new events that conflicted with those they remembered.

All timelines are equally real. Just because they never showed what happened after Yar or Spock disappeared into those "spatial anomalies," that doesn't mean that those timelines ended at the moment those people entered a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE. It's just that Spock and Yar were the point-of-view characters for those particular stories, so what happened in their original timelines after they left wasn't relevant to their personal stories.

Imagine in both cases if Picard was the viewpoint character. In Yar's original timeline, Picard would have watched the Enterprise-C disappear into the rift, and then would never hear from Yar again. He would continue fighting the Federation-Klingon war without her. From his point-of-view, only Yar and the Enterprise-C disappeared, but everything else was unchanged. But from Yar's point-of-view, her entire past was gone forever.

Or imagine that Picard on the Enterprise-E would see Ambassador Spock disappear into the black hole and would never hear from him again. But he would help re-settle Romulan survivors to new colonies after the supernova and get on with his life.

The point is that what you, the viewer, believe to be a "single timeline" is actually the personal timeline of the viewpoint character in a particular episode, who moves from one timeline to another, but remembers both.

You saw Yar and Spock changing history, then remaining in that new timeline, so for those specific people, yes, it seems like they have "altered" their "own" pasts (i.e., the events they are witnessing are different from the ones they remember), but for everyone else in the universe, events have only happened once, with only one outcome, whether they are in the original or new timeline.

 

[firefox390]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

It is in fact an "alternate timeline." Both Spock (speaking to Kirk in the cave) and Uhura (in the bridge after the destruction of Vulcan) hypothesized that. Also, Orci, Kurtzman and Abrams have clarified the movie to be an alternate universe in several interviews.

The fact that the black hole caused Spock and Nero to travel back in time is a no-brainer. But I also see the black hole as a gateway to a second "alternate" universe. Changes made within that dimension remains static to the events created in the original time continuum.

So stop the stuborness! You've got nothing to worry about. Stop the backyard BBQs of your DVD collections immediately. See this whole thing as only a "what if" scenario. Have fun with it!

 

[Brent]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Why can't we think of it like this, Spock and Nero both TIME traveled AND Went into an alternate universe AT THE SAME TIME.

When both ships entered the black hole, not only did they travel into the past, but at that moment, cause of Nero's interactions with the past, it ALSO created a new reality, that both Spock and Nero were now a part of. So they actually ended up going into the past, and going to an alternate reality. Both time traveling and jumping to a new reality.

So therefore, if Spock were to now go forward in time from this point, he would still be in the new reality. However, if he got ahold of some sort of universe jumping device (like the one seen in DS9 that let Smiley jump realities), they could still go to the original universe that Spock was from, and if that device had time travel capability they could go back and forth in time in that reality to see how events would have turned out if their past wasn't altered by Nero from another reality.

To summarize, that is how I look at it, Spock and Nero both went backwards in time and jumped to new reality due to that time travel. Spock could go back to his own universe if he had a dimensional transporter device. But to get back to his own time he would have to time travel within his own universe, not this new reality he is in, cause he would only be going to its future, not his universe's future.

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

I think they went into the past of the Prime universe and altered it. Just as the Enterprise C altered events by going back in time.

I think you are misunderstanding the temporal mechanics involved.

Yes, Spock going into the past and being captured by the Romulans is just like Lt. Yar going into the past on the Enterprise-C and being captured by the Romulans.

In both cases, their travel to the past resulted in a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE that was DIFFERENT from the one they had come from.

In Yar's original timeline, the Federation was at war with the Klingons. By going back in time, she created a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE where the Federation was not at war, and in fact a Klingon officer served on the Enterprise-D.

In Spock's "original" timeline (in reality, his last 40 years were in the alternate timeline created by Lt. Yar on the Enterprise-C) the planet Vulcan still existed, Kirk's father had seen Kirk grow up, and Spock was estranged from his own father. With Spock and Nero going back in time to a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE, they changed all the events that they remembered from their own timeline.

When you talk about "altering your own timeline," you're talking about a "Back to the Future"-style paradox where you start fading away from photographs of yourself as you erase your own past.

Lt. Yar and Spock definitely didn't fade away. They were real people from real timelines with real pasts, who both happened to be in a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE creating new events that conflicted with those they remembered.

All timelines are equally real. Just because they never showed what happened after Yar or Spock disappeared into those "spatial anomalies," that doesn't mean that those timelines ended at the moment those people entered a NEW, ALTERNATE TIMELINE. It's just that Spock and Yar were the point-of-view characters for those particular stories, so what happened in their original timelines after they left wasn't relevant to their personal stories.

Imagine in both cases if Picard was the viewpoint character. In Yar's original timeline, Picard would have watched the Enterprise-C disappear into the rift, and then would never hear from Yar again. He would continue fighting the Federation-Klingon war without her. From his point-of-view, only Yar and the Enterprise-C disappeared, but everything else was unchanged. But from Yar's point-of-view, her entire past was gone forever.

Or imagine that Picard on the Enterprise-E would see Ambassador Spock disappear into the black hole and would never hear from him again. But he would help re-settle Romulan survivors to new colonies after the supernova and get on with his life.

The point is that what you, the viewer, believe to be a "single timeline" is actually the personal timeline of the viewpoint character in a particular episode, who moves from one timeline to another, but remembers both.

You saw Yar and Spock changing history, then remaining in that new timeline, so for those specific people, yes, it seems like they have "altered" their "own" pasts (i.e., the events they are witnessing are different from the ones they remember), but for everyone else in the universe, events have only happened once, with only one outcome, whether they are in the original or new timeline.

But than why did Guinan say things werent right? When Tasha went back in the past the altered Universe continued to exist???Why even change anything at all? If it still exists. I thought they sent the Enterprise C back to restore the timeline??

 

[DeafPoet]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Why can't we think of it like this, Spock both TIME traveled AND Went into an alternate universe AT THE SAME TIME.

See: USS Defiant, "In A Mirror, Darkly"

Those episode had their share of problems too, but I didn't see anyone saying the basic premise was bullshit.

 

[Brent]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Why can't we think of it like this, Spock both TIME traveled AND Went into an alternate universe AT THE SAME TIME.

See: USS Defiant, "In A Mirror, Darkly"

Those episode had their share of problems too, but I didn't see anyone saying the basic premise was bullshit.

EXACTLY! That ship both went back in time and jumped to a different universe at the same time.

The only difference here is that the new reality Spock and Nero jumed to was a direct result of their time traveling, the instant they went into the black hole that created a new reality that they became a part of due to the time traveling.

Confusing, but it makes sense.

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Why can't we think of it like this, Spock both TIME traveled AND Went into an alternate universe AT THE SAME TIME.

See: USS Defiant, "In A Mirror, Darkly"

Those episode had their share of problems too, but I didn't see anyone saying the basic premise was bullshit.

Well that was one of the Episodes I mentioned above. I think alternate universe and parallel universe are the same. So this new movie nothing is actually altered. Its just a different universe altogether I suppose.

 

[DeafPoet]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Why can't we think of it like this, Spock both TIME traveled AND Went into an alternate universe AT THE SAME TIME.

See: USS Defiant, "In A Mirror, Darkly"

Those episode had their share of problems too, but I didn't see anyone saying the basic premise was bullshit.

Well that was one of the Episodes I mentioned above.

I skimmed the stuff I missed since the thread started. Sorry if I poached your idea. If anything though, it makes it more relevant because the parallel is pretty obvious.

 

[Tactical Drone]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

defiantly a Seperate Divergent Universe. If it was an alternate timeline, Old Spock would disappear and never even exist and/or not remember the events of his own time if he were around. just pure brilliance of JJ Abrams. He reboots the series but protects the continity that we all know...Just puts it in another universe. Now who knows the bounds of what we could re-experience. They could retell old stories kinda in a fresh and exciting new way.

 

[Tosk]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

For me, it's pretty clear that this is an alternate timeline. Many Trek stories have shown the alternate timelines continue on after we "change" things. The Mirror universe co-exists with ours, so why can't the Abrams universe do the same?

Ambassador Spock and the crew of the Narada have all their Roddenberry universe memories intact, and they remain unchanged by the events of the film.

The film is set in "our" universe for just the opening moments, which then splits into an alternate timeline when the Narada comes through.

 

[gastrof]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Alternate timeline.
Mirror universe.
They are the same thing.

No.

No they're not.

An alternate, or more correctly "altered" TIMELINE means that a single universe has had its past altered, and now as time passes things take on a different shape than they would otherwise have had.

A "mirror" or "parallel" (or even "alternate") universe is one that sits alongside the "main" universe (the one we're most familiar with) and is similar but not identical. Usually this is because at some point different happenings took place, but those different happenings could have been so long ago the divergence (present differences) are huge.

I've still not seen the movie yet, so can't say whether it's one or the other. Considering the spoilers I've picked up on (including the horrible

Spoiler: bad thing!!!

losing of Amanda

), tho', it may end up I really will want this to NOT be the same universe, but simply a parallel. That would mean that even if we never see it again, at least things are the way we remember them in the original universe, and aren't being overwritten.

I can accept this as a separate reality that's now going to be the only TREK universe we see. I'm just not sure I want it to be a forever-altered version of the original.

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

Alternate timeline.
Mirror universe.
They are the same thing.

No.

No they're not.

An alternate, or more correctly "altered" TIMELINE means that a single universe has had its past altered, and now as time passes things take on a different shape than they would otherwise have had.

A "mirror" or "parallel" (or even "alternate") universe is one that sits alongside the "main" universe (the one we're most familiar with) and is similar but not identical. Usually this is because at some point different happenings took place, but those different happenings could have been so long ago the divergence (present differences) are huge.

I've still not seen the movie yet, so can't say whether it's one or the other. Considering the spoilers I've picked up on (including the horrible

Spoiler: bad thing!!!

losing of Amanda

), tho', it may end up I really will want this to NOT be the same universe, but simply a parallel. That would mean that even if we never see it again, at least things are the way we remember them, and aren't being overwritten.

I can accept this as a separate reality that's now going to be the only TREK universe we see. I'm just not sure I want it to be a forever-altered version of the original.

You know the more I think about it. This is not an altered universe but rather a parallel one either it was always there or created by Nero and Old Spock. This is the way Im going to think of it. I also am not really interested in this parallel universe, so most likely wont give a poop about a new film.

 

[gastrof]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

You know the more I think about it. This is not an altered universe but rather a parallel one either it was always there or created by Nero and Old Spock. This is the way Im going to think of it. I also am not really interested in this parallel universe, so most likely wont give a poop about a new film.

No.

You will see it and enjoy it. It is Trek and all things Trek must be enjoyed. If you do not do this, Mugatos will come for you by night and carry you off to a Klingon prison camp where you will make oven mitts and animated toy seylats for Vulcan children, to quiet their nerves in the survivors camps.

 

[Dar70]

Re: ALtered or Alternate Timeline????

You know the more I think about it. This is not an altered universe but rather a parallel one either it was always there or created by Nero and Old Spock. This is the way Im going to think of it. I also am not really interested in this parallel universe, so most likely wont give a poop about a new film.

No.

You will see it and enjoy it. It is Trek and all things Trek must be enjoyed. If you do not do this, Mugatos will come for you by night and carry you off to a Klingon prison camp where you will make oven mitts and animated toy seylats for Vulcan children, to quiet their nerves in the survivors camps.

I'll take the Mugato.