All future Kirk/Spock novels to be in new timeline?

[DimesDan]

How can K'Ehleyr get pregnant unintentionally, according to real world science? I don't know.

Easy, no use of protection in anyway shape or form.(No pill, condom etc) Although an injection was mentioned in (either Umbra or Strange Bedfellows) when Kasidy Yates fell pregnant accidentally BECAUSE Sisko forgot his. Now, if you're talking about 2010, it's still easily done, even if she were on the pill, some other medication could have cancelled it out.

 

[Paris]

Bashir said that Worf and Jadzia may have problems conceiving, but she was a Trill. Not a human. As Trills can carry a symbiont, they must be even more different on a genetic level that humans and Klingons are from each other.

And as for K'Ehleyr...
It was her parents who had to overcome the difficulty in procreating, not her. She was half Klingon and half Human, and if Klingons and Humans can procreate, a 1/2 Klingon can probably procreate with a full blooded Klingon easier.

But when it comes down to it, I really don't have a satisfying answer for you. It's a fictional universe populated by a lot of different species, many of which, seem really similar to one another. In reality, this would probably not be the case. Human looking aliens all over the galaxy would seem like an impossibility. But since it's not impossible in the trek universe(s), procreation among different species with viable offspring is not the most ridiculous thing we've seen happen over there .

 

[JD]

I'm really confused as to how this realtes to the book? We've seen Saavik (and Spock) several (or awhole hell of a lot, in Spock's case) times since TVH, and no has ever mentioned her ever being pregnant as far as I know. I would think if she had been pregnant, even if she didn't have the kid, that it would have been mentioned somewhere.

 

[snakespeare]

^Well, supposedly she stayed on Vulcan with Amanda to have the baby. But this novel could put an end to that speculation.


Dimesdan, a mule and a horse can not have babies. If they could, we would use a different word than "species" when referring to the difference between a horse and an ass. Because, you see, that is part of the defintion of the word "Species". Therefore, if K'Ehleyr can get pregnant without any medical assistance, Humans and Klingons are the same species. Since we know this is not true, only unscientific fiction can bring it off.

 

[Greg Cox]

It's a fictional universe populated by a lot of different species, many of which, seem really similar to one another. In reality, this would probably not be the case. Human looking aliens all over the galaxy would seem like an impossibility. But since it's not impossible in the trek universe(s), procreation among different species with viable offspring is not the most ridiculous thing we've seen happen over there .

Exactly. It's a STAR TREK thing. Go with it.

 

[Paris]

I'm really confused as to how this realtes to the book? We've seen Saavik (and Spock) several (or awhole hell of a lot, in Spock's case) times since TVH, and no has ever mentioned her ever being pregnant as far as I know. I would think if she had been pregnant, even if she didn't have the kid, that it would have been mentioned somewhere.

From what I remember, MWB's pitch for Unspoken Truth has been around for a few years, and one of the speculative points about the book was that the "Unspoken Truth" was the fact that Saavik stayed on Vulcan and had a baby after TVH. Since no one has read the book in the fan community yet, it's still speculation of course.

The fact that no one mentioned it means noting. The book wasn't written yet, so it wasn't mentioned. If it is true that Saavik and Spock did have a child, then it would be mentioned from this point on. This would not be the first time that info was added to the "past".

 

[DimesDan]

^Well, supposedly she stayed on Vulcan with Amanda to have the baby. But this novel could put an end to that speculation.


Dimesdan, a mule and a horse can not have babies. If they could, we would use a different word than "species" when referring to the difference between a horse and an ass. Because, you see, that is part of the defintion of the word "Species". Therefore, if K'Ehleyr can get pregnant without any medical assistance, Humans and Klingons are the same species. Since we know this is not true, only unscientific fiction can bring it off.

Yes I am fully aware of that Snakespeare, when you said that "How can K'Ehleyr get pregnant unintentionally, according to real world science? I don't know." I was not taking that into account, because, well, Star Trek ain't real. So when you said "real world science" I was thinking, well you know what, these things can happen, when using all the protection in the world "accidents" happen and you can get a little sprog out of it and because it ain't real and that Worf and K'Ehleyr had unprotected sex which resulted in Alexander.

 

[snakespeare]

It's a fictional universe populated by a lot of different species, many of which, seem really similar to one another. In reality, this would probably not be the case. Human looking aliens all over the galaxy would seem like an impossibility. But since it's not impossible in the trek universe(s), procreation among different species with viable offspring is not the most ridiculous thing we've seen happen over there .

Exactly. It's a STAR TREK thing. Go with it.

Actually, in my home RPG of Trek, she did get pregnant, but I said it was because of the Genesis Effect. I would hope, considering that science fiction does try to based its speculation on scientific theories, that some sort of explanation of plausibility would accompany it, knowing, of course, that science geeks like me exist out here and are asking these questions. That's the usual modus operandi, right?

Just to add, the source of ALL this speculation is a comment about a scene from the movie left on the cutting room floor, which is pretty much a Trek mega-rumor now.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Oh good. Hopefully this will put to rest the concept of a half-Romulan/human and a half-Vulcan/human being able to reproduce.

Even if the missing Saavik scene was restored to ST IV and made canon, all that was ever said was that Kirk understood Saavik's not testifying in person "in your condition".

That could still mean many things and was only ever a dangling plot thread that wasn't picked up. It has certainly never been picked up by any ST comics or novels featuring a post-ST IV Saavik, not even the ones that show her married to Spock.

However, there have been many episodes in the Star Trek franchise featuring hybrid offspring. And TNG's episode "The Chase", which attempted to explain the interconnectedness of many of the Alpha and Beta Quadrant sentient aliens.

 

[Christopher]

^From what I remember, MWB postulated that Saavik was 1/2 Vulcan-1/2 Romulan.

That was in the original script of TWOK and was established in print in Vonda N. McIntyre's novelization thereof. All subsequent prose depictions of Saavik have built on McIntyre's backstory for her.


As for debating the plausibility of interspecies hybrids -- if we're talking plausibility, aliens wouldn't look remotely like humans to begin with, let alone have compatible genitalia. It would be startling if alien life even used DNA at all, or if its DNA was encoded in the same "language" as ours. So it's kind of a double standard to accept the existence of a hybrid like Spock or K'Ehleyr in the first place, yet reject the possibility that they could be fertile. If you can suspend disbelief for one, you can do it for both.

 

[Daddy Todd]

(O)ne of the speculative points about the book was that the "Unspoken Truth" was the fact that Saavik stayed on Vulcan and had a baby after TVH.

When I first heard the title "The Unspoken Truth," I assumed it was a referece to a line spoken by a certain female Romulan Commander. If I were to speculate, I'd guess the title has more to do with Saavik's parentage than with her offspring.

 

[Paris]

(O)ne of the speculative points about the book was that the "Unspoken Truth" was the fact that Saavik stayed on Vulcan and had a baby after TVH.

When I first heard the title "The Unspoken Truth," I assumed it was a referece to a line spoken by a certain female Romulan Commander. If I were to speculate, I'd guess the title has more to do with Saavik's parentage than with her offspring.

That is totally plausible as well. Saavik and Spock's offspring was just a rumor that I, and it seems many, have heard bandied about in the last few years. This book may just be about Saavik's backstory, and may delve into the circumstances of her parentage and maybe her time on Hellguard as an orphan. I guess we'll see in February/March

 

[Therin of Andor]

A horse and an ass can make a mule, but two mules can't make another mule.

Wikipedia says that some female mules do have estrus cycles and can carry a fetus. It is called a "molly" and can occasionally occur naturally as well as through embryo transfer.

 

[snakespeare]

Oh good. Hopefully this will put to rest the concept of a half-Romulan/human and a half-Vulcan/human being able to reproduce.

Even if the missing Saavik scene was restored to ST IV and made canon, all that was ever said was that Kirk understood Saavik's not testifying in person "in your condition".

That could still mean many things and was only ever a dangling plot thread that wasn't picked up. It has certainly never been picked up by any ST comics or novels featuring a post-ST IV Saavik, not even the ones that show her married to Spock.

However, there have been many episodes in the Star Trek franchise featuring hybrid offspring. And TNG's episode "The Chase", which attempted to explain the interconnectedness of many of the Alpha and Beta Quadrant sentient aliens.

Great stuff, Therin. Thanks.

The one point of science I am raising isn't about hybrid offspring, it is about offspring of the hybrids, which is, at this time, part of the definition of the word species. If the hybrids CAN have offspring, they are "races", not "species", according to the current definition of those terms.

Just needed to clarify that. But I don't mean to question the accuracy of anything you wrote, which is all spot on.

 

[snakespeare]

A horse and an ass can make a mule, but two mules can't make another mule.

Wikipedia says that some female mules do have estrus cycles and can carry a fetus. It is called a "molly" and can occasionally occur naturally as well as through embryo transfer.

Wow! I better go read up on that.

I see... It references this article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2290491.stm

It says that since Shakespeare's time there have been 60 documented cases. So presumably, K'Ehleyr had a similar thing happen. So, it should be very, very rare.

it reads:
The occurrence is so historically rare that the Romans had a saying Cum mula peperit, meaning 'when a mule foals', the equivalent of our 'once in a very blue moon'," explained Dr Gigi Kay, a horse vet with the charity the Society for the Protection of Animals Abroad, who has visited the mother and son.

 

[seigezunt]

(O)ne of the speculative points about the book was that the "Unspoken Truth" was the fact that Saavik stayed on Vulcan and had a baby after TVH.

When I first heard the title "The Unspoken Truth," I assumed it was a referece to a line spoken by a certain female Romulan Commander. If I were to speculate, I'd guess the title has more to do with Saavik's parentage than with her offspring.

or maybe it's both!

 

[snakespeare]

I have discovered the detail of my error, and why Therin is right. From wikipedia: "A common definition is that of a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring of both genders".

Therefore, K'Eyleyr could be an exception, as could Saavik, in a similar scenario, but the male would have to be a purebred like Worf, not a half-breed like Spock. Scientifically speaking, I still don't see how Saavik can have a baby unintentionally unless it is that the Genesis Effect made Spock viable.

And this also means that it should be possible for the pahkwa-than doctor to devise something for you-know-who. (Note: I am only halfway through Destiny, so don't tell me).

 

[sfroth]

I have discovered the detail of my error, and why Therin is right. From wikipedia: "A common definition is that of a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring of both genders".

It's been a long, long time since high school biology for me, but I believe you're also missing the other part of the definition of species - capable of interbreeding. That is to say, naturally exist in the same place and so are able to reproduce together naturally. Besides which, the definition of the word species is itself a bone of contention, at least according to the same wikipedia page you mentioned.

 

[snakespeare]

I have discovered the detail of my error, and why Therin is right. From wikipedia: "A common definition is that of a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring of both genders".

It's been a long, long time since high school biology for me, but I believe you're also missing the other part of the definition of species - capable of interbreeding. That is to say, naturally exist in the same place and so are able to reproduce together naturally. Besides which, the definition of the word species is itself a bone of contention, at least according to the same wikipedia page you mentioned.

Yes, but for simplicity's sake, Humans, Vulcans, Klingons, and Betazeds, are all different species and their hybrid offspring should not be considered viable without some sort of scientific explanation.

 

[Greg Cox]

I have discovered the detail of my error, and why Therin is right. From wikipedia: "A common definition is that of a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring of both genders".

It's been a long, long time since high school biology for me, but I believe you're also missing the other part of the definition of species - capable of interbreeding. That is to say, naturally exist in the same place and so are able to reproduce together naturally. Besides which, the definition of the word species is itself a bone of contention, at least according to the same wikipedia page you mentioned.

Yes, but for simplicity's sake, Humans, Vulcans, Klingons, and Betazeds, are all different species and their hybrid offspring should not be considered viable without some sort of scientific explanation.

Except that it happens all the time in STAR TREK. Spock, Deanna Troi, B'Elanna, etc. And their ability to reproduce has never been an issue.

I think we just have to accept that real-life science doesn't apply in this case. It's like Superman being able to fly under a yellow sun. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but those are the rules.