"Akira" class-A joke?

[Forbin]

Why in the world wouldn't a human be able to master the bat'leth? Dax did fine. I imagine any martial arts master would have no problem.

And while I understand it may take Force sensitivity to properly use a lightsaber, building one seems merely to need technical knowledge. The lightsaber factory could be chock full of civilians.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, nothing Lucas himself ever did suggested that the building of lightsabers was a frighteningly mystic art by itself. It just happened that the movies IV-VI took place at a time when most of the Jedi, and all of the lightsaber factories, were gone - so of course Luke had to build his own replacement saber after losing the one that had belonged to his father.

For all we know, Obi-Wan bought his frequent replacements from Corus-mart.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Noname Given]

Unwrapped said:
To clarify my Star Wars analogy, lightsabers have always been restricted to individuals who are Force-sensitives. Always. You can't build a lightsaber without a connection to the Force, nor can you train in it effectively as a Jedi or a Sith can. You can't do this anymore than a human can pick up a Klingon bat'leth and wield it perfectly. Now, George certainly has the power to change that, as he can set the rules for canon, but it's extremely unlikely that he would because it would upset the continuity of the series and piss off a lot of fans. He would not allow any other producer to do so either.

Star Trek unfortunately doesn't have that kind of quality control, not in the past few years anyway. For all the blame that Bermaga get, and they're certainly guilty of some of it, the suits at the studio are probably more guilty. They favor money over quality, and both ENT and VOY suffered as a result. Hence we get designs like the "Akiraprise" and weapons that have similar names and abilities to more advanced ones, when there should be some distinction.

Actually, if you look at dialog from the original 1977 Star Wars films, Lightsabers weren't restricted - they were just seen as outdated or not practical.

From Star Wars:
----------------------
Obi-Wan: "Your father's Lightsaber. An elegant weapon from a more civilized age."

then later

Han Solo: "Ancient weapons and hohey religions are no match for a good Blaster at your side, kid."

So, I take all that to mean that the majority of people of the Satr Wars Universe considered Lightsabers outdated since they had no range. The fact that Jedi continued to find them useful is why the Jedi continued to use them after everyone else considered them anachronistic.

Given who Geoorge Lucas is seen to create stuff, I seriously doubt much thought went into why only Jedi used lightsabers; and I doubt they are in any way 'restricted' only to the Jedi.

 

[Unicron]

Nerys Myk said:

Yet there is no objection when TNG and TOS having weapons with the same names and abilities. Have no new weapons been invented in the 100 years between the two? Was GR being lazy and favoring money over quality by not given TNG different weapons? There seems to be the idea that prequel means "totally different". When all it really means is before the other stuff.

But there's a pretty clear difference between TOS phasers and TNG+ phasers. They look distinct so that people won't confuse the two. And that is my point. You're right that not everything in a prequel has to be completely different - the SW prequels illustrate this nicely - but there has to be enough to distinguish it from the modern era. That's where ENT got screwed up, because the PTB were lazy and didn't care about that distinction. That's why they spent a good deal of S1 recycling the Klingons, Borg, Ferengi etc instead of actually focusing on the key races that eventually created the Federation.

Forbin said:
Why in the world wouldn't a human be able to master the bat'leth? Dax did fine. I imagine any martial arts master would have no problem.

That's correct, with training anyone can wield a bat'leth. If any character can just pick one up and fight expertly with it though, that's lazy writing. Unlike a phaser, you don't have a trigger to pull. The same is true of the lightsaber. A non-Jedi can wield one in an emergency, but there's no way in hell they'd be as effective.

And while I understand it may take Force sensitivity to properly use a lightsaber, building one seems merely to need technical knowledge. The lightsaber factory could be chock full of civilians.

From what I've always read, lightsaber construction was restricted exclusively to Jedi and Sith. The knowledge to build one isn't available to civilians, and that's one reason you need the Force to build one. This has not been stated in the movies but has appeared in a lot of offscreen material, and since said materials are considered to be part of the same continuity as the films, it's valid for me.

 

[JesterCel]

If I am not mistaken I distinctly remember having read something somewhere about the fact that choosing the crystal to power the lightsaber beam requires a certain level of adeptness with the force, otherwise the saber just won't work. I don't remember where I read that or if it was official but it does make sense as to why only Jedi use them.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Unwrapped said:


But there's a pretty clear difference between TOS phasers and TNG+ phasers. They look distinct so that people won't confuse the two. And that is my point. You're right that not everything in a prequel has to be completely different - the SW prequels illustrate this nicely - but there has to be enough to distinguish it from the modern era. That's where ENT got screwed up, because the PTB were lazy and didn't care about that distinction. That's why they spent a good deal of S1 recycling the Klingons, Borg, Ferengi etc instead of actually focusing on the key races that eventually created the Federation.

Is there? As far as I can tell they're both a beam of energy from a weapon that hurts/kills people. The main differences being the TOS weapons look like power drills or electric razors and the TNG weapons look like dustbusters. The ENT phase pistols are bulkier and more towards the power drill look.

In S1 They did one episode with Ferengi and two with the Klingons (If you count Broken Bow)while several focused on the Vulcans and the Andorians. (and Humans) So I'd say the UFP founders got their share of episodes. The bulk of the episodes featured one off races (ala TOS) while following an arc involving the Suliban as reoccurring villains. The Borg episode is in S2.

 

[Timo]

If I am not mistaken I distinctly remember having read something somewhere about the fact that choosing the crystal to power the lightsaber beam requires a certain level of adeptness with the force, otherwise the saber just won't work. I don't remember where I read that or if it was official but it does make sense as to why only Jedi use them.

That's the difference between Trek and Wars: the latter accepts written things as "real" for their universe.

But once the crystal is chosen and installed, the saber should work just fine for any user, right? I mean, Han uses Luke's saber to cut open that tauntaun. So with a little practice, he should be able to use it to cut open a Sith or two... It's not as if the technology or mystique of the weapon itself would be a hindrance there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[captcalhoun]

waving it around to slice open a tauntaun is one thing. using it to catch force lightning, deflect blaster bolts or throwing it to slice a catwalk's support struts to bring it down is another matter. likewise to have enough ability to block force-enhanced speedy thrusts, lunges and cuts...

 

[Garibaldi O'brien]

General Grievous had as many light saber's as eBay has beanie babies, and he was able to use them, even if he was 88% mechanical. I don't care if my sword was a beam of pure plasma energy, I am quite certain a sniper could make short work of me before I got anywhere near enough to lop off his head. It was the preferred weapon of the Jedi (ninja), but I can see why the blaster replaced it.

(and what does Obi-Wan use to take down GG... an uncivilized BLASTER)

 

[Brannigan]

I gotta say, this thread has gone in many different directions than I thought it would. Its been fun watching it. I thought it would go in the direction of trek inside jokes, but instead started off as jokes about the Akira class, then onto a discussion of the "Akiraprise" and now onto lightsabers and phasers. Keep it up this has become a fun thread

 

[The Wormhole]

Garibaldi O'brien said:
(and what does Obi-Wan use to take down GG... an uncivilized BLASTER)

Good catch. I never even realized.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

^ That's what made the "kill" that much more ironic, IMO.

Ewan McGregor played that scene perfectly, with the way he tossed the blaster to the side...

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Garibaldi O'brien]

^ I was surprised he didn't collect GG's light sabers. (Ohhhh look, spares!)

He sure lost enough of them. How he held onto TWO long enough to give one to Luke can only be attributed to having collected all the light sabers from all the dead Jedi in the temple and then locking them in a box, marked NOT LIGHT SABERS.

/Ewan McGregor was the best part of the prequels. Bad Saber habits aside.

 

[Forbin]

Colonel Midnight said:
^ That's what made the "kill" that much more ironic, IMO.

Ewan McGregor played that scene perfectly, with the way he tossed the blaster to the side...

Cheers,
-CM-

Yeah, despite the fact that it had just saved his life, gotten rid of an evil villian and ended a serious threat to the good guys. Ungrateful bastard!

 

[Unicron]

Nerys Myk said:

Is there? As far as I can tell they're both a beam of energy from a weapon that hurts/kills people. The main differences being the TOS weapons look like power drills or electric razors and the TNG weapons look like dustbusters. The ENT phase pistols are bulkier and more towards the power drill look.

Yes. There are not a whole lot of differences readily apparent onscreen, aside from the prop differences, but they're there nonetheless. Just as there's not a huge mechanical difference between modern weapons and those used during WWII, yet there's a clear distinction between such weapons. The physical parameters are different and in many cases the ammunition is different. They cannot be confused.

What it ultimately comes down to is this: the PTB were supposed to create a prequel, something distinct from all of the series before it. Their effort wasn't particularly successful because they were lazy in some respects and just didn't care about others, and the result was that this prequel didn't feel any different from the previous, modern-day series. The "Akiraprise" design is simply one symptom of that problem.

It can't be fixed now, but I don't think it's fair to try and retroactively ignore it or rationalize it either. Just as no one tries to rationalize an ep like "Threshold" or "Shades of Grey." These two are infamous in the list of bad Trek eps for a reason.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Unwrapped said:

Nerys Myk said:

Is there? As far as I can tell they're both a beam of energy from a weapon that hurts/kills people. The main differences being the TOS weapons look like power drills or electric razors and the TNG weapons look like dustbusters. The ENT phase pistols are bulkier and more towards the power drill look.

Yes. There are not a whole lot of differences readily apparent onscreen, aside from the prop differences, but they're there nonetheless. Just as there's not a huge mechanical difference between modern weapons and those used during WWII, yet there's a clear distinction between such weapons. The physical parameters are different and in many cases the ammunition is different. They cannot be confused.

So you agree that there are differences between phasers and phase pistols, just as there are differences between Modern weapons and historical ones of the same lineage.? Even if those difference aren't apparent to the naked eye?

What it ultimately comes down to is this: the PTB were supposed to create a prequel, something distinct from all of the series before it. Their effort wasn't particularly successful because they were lazy in some respects and just didn't care about others, and the result was that this prequel didn't feel any different from the previous, modern-day series. The "Akiraprise" design is simply one symptom of that problem.

I'm not sure we can say what the PTP were "supposed" to do. "We" did not issue them a mandate or set any parameters. As I said a prequel means "Before the other stuff" not "different from the other stuff". Yes the NX-01 was based on the Akira, probably because Berman liked the design not because he's lazy or didn't care. It's a bit presumptuous to assign motivations to people and events you don't know or did not witness. If Berman was truly lazy he'd just use the Akria its self.

Each Trek show has its own feel, yet each one follows the same formula so they're are bound feel the same too. Even DS9 which tried to shift the formula a bit went back to it when they added the Defiant. A Star Trek show should feel like Star Trek. After DS9, ENT is my favorite "modern trek", mostly because it feels more like TOS. ( Until they got all arc happy in S3 and fanwank happy in S4)

It can't be fixed now, but I don't think it's fair to try and retroactively ignore it or rationalize it either. Just as no one tries to rationalize an ep like "Threshold" or "Shades of Grey." These two are infamous in the list of bad Trek eps for a reason.

Sure it's fair. Rationalization is what the entire franchise rests on. It the only way it works most of the time. From fans and even from the guys who actually make it. Ignoring is always an option. But that usually means standing on the highest rooftop shouting "I'M IGNORING THIS!!!! HEY EVERYONE!! LOOK AT ME IGNORING THIS!!" Not the best approach in my opinion. I take the good with the bad and try to make it work in my rationalizations. It doesn't matter if its a series/episode/movie I don't like or even something that might not make sense. If I could recall what "Threshold" or "Shades of Grey" were about I'd include them my rationalizations/canon/pseudo-history. Who knows maybe some good or great can come from them.

 

[captcalhoun]

not really, no

 

[Forbin]

Nerys Myk said:If I could recall what "Threshold" or "Shades of Grey" were about I'd include them my rationalizations/canon/pseudo-history. Who knows maybe some good or great can come from them.

Threshold was the Voyager episode where they experimented with making a shuttlecraft hit the magic warp ten speed limit. The result of going that fast was that Janeway and Paris were "evolved" into salamanders, mated and had slamander babies. The holodoc restored them to human with some technobabble involving their recorded DNA patterns.

Shades of Grey was the clips show that TNG ran during the writers' strike. Riker gets pricked by an alien plant, falls into a coma, and remembers clips from past episodes. It was a minimum effort excuse to get something on the air.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The salamanders! Now I recall. Eh, yeah it sucked, but to me most of VOY sucked. So one more ain't gonna tip the scale. But it's still canon along with "Spock's Brain", "TATV" and that DS9 episode where they were going "home" or something. Same for "Shades of Grey." No lalalalalalala with fingers in my ears when it's mentioned.

 

[Noname Given]

Forbin said:

Nerys Myk said:If I could recall what "Threshold" or "Shades of Grey" were about I'd include them my rationalizations/canon/pseudo-history. Who knows maybe some good or great can come from them.

Threshold was the Voyager episode where they experimented with making a shuttlecraft hit the magic warp ten speed limit. The result of going that fast was that Janeway and Paris were "evolved" into salamanders, mated and had slamander babies. The holodoc restored them to human with some technobabble involving their recorded DNA patterns.

Shades of Grey was the clips show that TNG ran during the writers' strike. Riker gets pricked by an alien plant, falls into a coma, and remembers clips from past episodes. It was a minimum effort excuse to get something on the air.

Actually, Shades of Grey was the end to the second season of TNG and was aired WELL AFTER the 1988 WGA stritke (which started just during TNG season one - but all the scripts for season one were 'delivered' prior to the strike - although The Neutral Zone had only had one re-write, and as the staff admitted then, probably needed more, but they had something to shoot); and TNG season 2 (and every other TV series of that time) production was delayed until the WGA strike was resolved (which is why the season had less than 26 episodes).

Shades of Grey was produced and shown because the TNG production staff ran out of money; yet still had one episode to deliver - thus the 'clip show'.