Spoilers AHSOKA series [Spoiler Discussion]

[Reverend]

OK, well that felt like a live action episode of Clone Wars, and a good on at that! All of those 20 minute episodes turned out to be excellent practice for efficient and dense storytelling. It did everything I wanted from this episode; gave us a good focus on Ahsoka and Sabine. Addressed some lingering questions about force sensitivity and suitability. Set up the cup as Sabine's life-long nemesis. I approve!

Semi random notes: -

• I'm low-key obsessed with the T-6. It's always been my favourite Jedi ship from Clone Wars, but it's fast becoming my favourite ship ever. Not bad for something that started life as a very crude background model for AotC! I think I'm mostly just a sucker for compact utilitarian design. Give me an Ghost, Falcon or Ebon Hawk over an X-Wing or a Star Destroyer any day!
• They're officially calling the Jedi "fight while blind" technique "Zatochi"? I see what you did there Dave, and I think Freddie Prinze Jr will get a kick out of that given it was always his touchstone for Kanan.
• Also hell of a way to demonstrate the vast gap in natural talent between Sabine and Luke, since this is literally the first (and only!) sabre lesson Kenobi gave him, and here Huyang doesn't think she's ready despite her background and previous training.
• The colouring isn't exactly the same, but I'm pretty sure they've gone and made Huyang's holo-target saber things look suspiciously like the Mars Perseverance Sample Tubes. If so: fun cyclical reference!
• Interesting that the T-6's equipment lockers are missing both a pair of sparring sabres and two remotes. Did she give them to Luke, I wonder? Or just attrition?
  
• There's something very endearing about Huyang's blunt, unfiltered honesty. Obfuscation and coddling are clearly not in his programming, but neither is discouragement. He'll instruct any padawan put in front of him, no matter the obstacles.
• Looks like Legacy have built a whole new Mon Cala rig for this show, and it looks far more articulate than previous iterations!
• Is that Chandrilla they're in orbit of? Doesn't look much like Coruscant or Hosnian Prime . . .
• Anyone else notice how Hera doesn't mention Ahsoka's part in any of this to the Senate Committee? You'd think the word of Bail Organa's spymaster, the founder of Alliance Intelligence, THE Fulcrum would carry some weight . . . unless Hera is running her off the books and officially, she still doesn't exist.
• OK, so can all the people asking where Jacen is please calm down now? See? He's with Chopper, just like I said!
• There's something gratifying about hearing him use the term "Aunt Sabine". Also of note is his hair is indeed green, and he has a little pauldron on his shoulder with the same symbol Kanan had on his. Cute.
• Sabine vs. Cup. Round 1. FIGHT!
• "...you do come from a long line of non-traditional Jedi." He says. Clearly the unspoken part of that is "two of which became Sith Lords", but then so is "and four of them transcended death and retained their individuality after becoming one with the cosmic force".
• Still kinda wild to think of Sabine as being part of the same Jedi lineage as Yoda, Dooku, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anakin. Does that make her Luke, Leia & Ben's "Jedi cousin"? Also, does her having trained with Ezra and Kanan also technically make her part of the Cyslin Myrm Mace Windu, Deppa Bilaba, Kanan lineage?
• I honestly kinda dig how the Jedi consider "lineage" to be a thing of knowledge and teachings, not genetics.I also wonder how far back they can trace that lineage. It must bottleneck at some point since the Jedi have almost been wiped out before.
• Fun new take on the classic turret gun sequence (and I might add, a lot closer to the version of that scene that was in the Rough Draft.) Ahsoka started out trying to get Sabine to anticipate her manoeuvres, but instead what worked was simply cooperation and communication. Acting as one. They're actually starting to behave like a Master and Padawan.
• And of course Sabine would have customised her own presets for the turret, given her extensive experience as a turret gunner, but also of course Ahsoka wouldn't need them because Jedi don't need any targeting system. Honestly I'm surprised the Jedi even bothered to install them on a T-6.
• Interesting (but not surprising) that the ancient Jedi had knowledge of Purrgil routes to other galaxies. One wonders how and why they stopped using them. Indeed I get the sense that a lot more has been lost since the fall of the Old Republic than we realise.
• Ah, it's an airlock! I was wondering last week what that new circular feature on the T-6 was. Honestly it's refreshing to see them actually put some thought into a ship's internal AND external configuration for a change. I don't mind playing a little fast and loose with it, but sometimes it starts to grate how often they just cheat it and hope nobody notices.
• Ahsoka got into that suit VERY quickly! Glad they went with the "sock & mask" approach for the headgear (something I think first appeared in the old X-Wing novels for a Twi-lek pilot.) A giant bubble helmet would be pushing it for an adult Togruta. Also makes one wonder how many anatomical eventualities a Jedi pressure suit locker is geared for. I mean I'm pretty sure it's vintage; there was what looked like a Republic Cog on the pauldron.
• Going outside to take on strafing ships with her lightsabers is such an Anakin move to make. Also, pretty sure this the first live action Star Wars EVA scene (at least with an actual suit on!)
• Nice re-use of the Purrgil music from the Rebels finale. A positive hopeful signal to Ahsoka & Sabine that they're on the right track.
• "What did I miss?" "We almost died." "Multiple times." "Ah, yes. Standard operating procedure." I'm not sure what's funnier; that he's actually being funny on purpose, or he's simply stating the facts of his Jedi programming.
• OK, Here's my theory about Marrok: He's a goon. A mid-level boss fight waiting to happen. Boba Fett in tESB. Nothing more. Well, that plus being Rey's father's, brother's, cousin's, nephew's former roommate, but that obviously just goes without saying.

1. When Ahsoka tells Sabine about the map, where she found it, and how it could lead to Ezra, she doesn't say anything about two Force wielders who broke out Morgan Elsbeth and who could be potentially seeking the map, too. Which made me realize that when Sabine went to grab her lightsaber to retrieve the stolen map, she didn't actually expect to be fighting someone who also had one. All she knew were some droid mercenaries robbed her.

Yup. You can see her visible surprise and sudden nervousness at facing a padawan. She thought she was going to just slice up some HK droids.

CHOPPER! and JACEN! Why isn't he green??

In the Coda his hair and the tips of his ears were slightly tinged green, and I note that his new mop of hair is 1) very dark green, and 2) very specifically covers said ears. Maybe to save on needless makeup for a young actor?

I’m not the biggest fan of them getting communications in hyperspace. That was never a thing in the old EU. Just makes more sense in my mind that it wouldn’t work.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. FTL communications was a thing even in the OT, so it makes sense that the transmissions are being sent through hyperspace, so if anything the signal should be stronger in transit. It's best to remember that a lot of these "rules" the EU made up mostly came from the early pen & paper RPGs, and they were mostly just guessing and/or trying to come up with interesting game mechanics. It's also where we get concepts like "Dark Jedi" and "force powers", which made sense for the purposes of said game mechanics but have no basis in anything Lucas ever said or wrote.

Glad to finally see Jacen as well as Chancellor Mon Mothma, even if it meant Hera's inevitably futile argument for help at Seatos. We already knew the New Republic would be weak and turn a blind, but it was still painful to watch it up close. Didn't help dealing with an arrogant senator who only cared to use Hera's sorrow against her.

Typical Senate BS.. Oh we'll just wait.. for shat to hit the fan before we do anything..

At least it's believable and not contrived for the sake of plot. It sounds like this isn't the first time Hera has diverted military resources for a search for Ezra, who by all reasonable accounts has probably been dead since before the Battle of Scarif.

Is Huyang a puppet? At first I had assumed he was CGI, but the more I see of him the more realistic he looks.

Nothing much about the bts is out in the while yet, but I'm going to take an educated guess and say that between the look of the thing, and since this episode featured no less than six credited puppeteers and no Loth Cats (droid operators are credited differently IIRC); yes, at least in part. I suspect there's several different approaches and rigs depending on the requirements of a given shot. If it's just close-ups to medium shots with dialogue and little action, then it's probably a puppet. If it's medium to wide shots with some action (walking around, using hands etc.) then it's either mocapped CG, or a full body rig like the one used for incomplete Threepio in TPM. If it's a very wide shot, it's almost certainty just CG.
Even when it's CG though, having the puppet on set in the correct lighting conditions for a scene is perfect reference for the artists to be able to match both the look, and the movement style.

Now onto my main question that came with this episode ( and maybe i missed some key elements from elsewhere) - can anyone be trained to use the Force and to what degree?

Yes, and "to the degree as a piece of string is long", respectively.

I once was pretty knowledgeable about this universe but i haven't been reading boks and comics for over a decade now ( last major series i read was the Yuzhaan Vong war), so my knowledge is outdated but i was always under the impression that you would need to have some sort of measurable innate power/connection to the Force in order to begin training as a Force user ( let's disregard the awful Midichlorian concept for a moment). To be a full blown Jedi though once certainly needs to have a close connection to the Force but everybody else?

That's brought up in this very episode. The Jedi Order had policies about who they would and would not train based on m-count and age at recruitment. That's not the same thing as limits on what is and is not possible, and seems more about what it optimal for an organization looking to maximise results for the minimum effort. Since it's that kind of dogmatic thinking that ultimately failed them, Ahsoka is not unreasonable in her openness to do it differently.

This episode seems to imply that anyone can train to use Force powers, it "just" takes dedication and certain mindset because the Force is present within all living creatures. Is that something new that came up with Ahsoka or was that something that's been within the Star Wars universe forever or introduced as a concept in recent years and i missed it.

It's from George as I recall. Honestly I think people got a little too hung up on the midichlorians thing (much like the Jedi) and mis-interpreted it's meaning as some kind of hard divide between force sensitive and non-force sensitive. The latter condition being of course; non-existent. Everyone is force sensitive, it's just *incredibly* difficult for anyone without a natural talent for it. But it's possible. See also: the idea that Han is lowkey force sensitive and just doesn't realise it. He just calls it "luck".

Also as I mentioned above; "force powers" isn't a thing. Or rather that's the wrong way to think of it and a term that's mostly just an artefact of gaming mechanics. Using the force isn't like unlocking a videogame skill tree, where you unlock a very specific ability and push a button to combo to just make it happen. Instead it's like using any other sense or part of your being. When you open a door, you're not using "opposable thumb dexterity powers", when you read you're not using a "light sense and linguistic comprehension power", and when you draw a stick figure you're not using "basic art powers". It's all just skill, and skills are an application of both sense and thought to affect the physical. It's the same with using the force.

Unfortunately, I agree. I can't really see the existing Disney/Lucasfilm leadership OKaying that. They could do it if they wanted to, but I don't see them doing it. But that could change at any time with a change in corporate leadership.

Considering what you're suggesting was one of the worst things to happen to that franchise, quickly dead-ended after three movies, and has taken the shows close to a decade and a half to shake off that apple store stank and actually make good Trek stories again . . . I'm not sure that's the best example to follow.
Doubly so considering they're currently repairing the damage done by the last time JJ got his "creative" hands on Star Wars, and what they're doing now is some of the best Star Wars they've ever made.

 

[Tarek71]

The Ancient Alien wormhole thing could be used to link the Milky Way to the SW Galaxy conceivably. An Earth reference could be interesting. Although being long, long ago, not just far, far away, Earth would probably no be of much interest to them even if they encountered it. Unless hiding out among primitives had some advantage.

 

[thribs]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. FTL communications was a thing even in the OT, so it makes sense that the transmissions are being sent through hyperspace, so if anything the signal should be stronger in transit. It's best to remember that a lot of these "rules" the EU made up mostly came from the early pen & paper RPGs, and they were mostly just guessing and/or trying to come up with interesting game mechanics. It's also where we get concepts like "Dark Jedi" and "force powers", which made sense for the purposes of said game mechanics but have no basis in anything Lucas ever said or wrote.

I have no issue that communication is faster than light. I just don’t like the idea they can get it while in hyperspace. That was never shown in the main movies. They were always cut off while so.

 

[thribs]

The Ancient Alien wormhole thing could be used to link the Milky Way to the SW Galaxy conceivably. An Earth reference could be interesting. Although being long, long ago, not just far, far away, Earth would probably no be of much interest to them even if they encountered it. Unless hiding out among primitives had some advantage.

It would just be the 65 movie, and Kylo Ren has already done that.

 

[Reverend]

I have no issue that communication is faster than light. I just don’t like the idea they can get it while in hyperspace. That was never shown in the main movies. They were always cut off while so.

Name one such time in the original or prequel movies where there was a specific "cut-off".

 

[thribs]

Name one such time in the original or prequel movies where there was a specific "cut-off".

I just mean you never see them use communications while they are at hyper speed

 

[DigificWriter]

I just mean you never see them use communications while they are at hyper speed

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

 

[thribs]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

I know but it was stated as a thing in the novels, which yes I know aren’t canon.

 

[Reverend]

I know but it was stated as a thing in the novels, which yes I know aren’t canon.

So what you're saying is that thing that wasn't intended by the creator, that was never depicted in any stories under his direction, that doesn't even made sense with the existing lore, should nevertheless be adhered to because some EU author mentioned it in passing?

Uh . . . good luck with that, I guess?

 

[thribs]

I’m just saying I’m not a fan of it. I don’t get the big fuss.
I just like the idea of putting some limitations of some tech. Makes them more interesting

 

[DigificWriter]

I’m just saying I’m not a fan of it. I don’t get the big fuss.
I just like the idea of putting some limitations of some tech. Makes them more interesting

People pushing back against you making up technological limitations as justification for disliking something isn't causing a "big fuss".

 

[Tarek71]

Considering what you're suggesting was one of the worst things to happen to that franchise, quickly dead-ended after three movies, and has taken the shows close to a decade and a half to shake off that apple store stank and actually make good Trek stories again . . . I'm not sure that's the best example to follow.
Doubly so considering they're currently repairing the damage done by the last time JJ got his "creative" hands on Star Wars, and what they're doing now is some of the best Star Wars they've ever made.

I would certainly NOT put the same people responsible for the sequel trilogy in charge of the AltVerse that has an open ended future without the constraints of the events of the sequel trilogy. That's why I said that this would take a change in the corporate and creative leadership. The current leadership wouldnt do it anyway, and I wouldnt want them to be the ones to do it even if they did want to.

I remember people on here on TREK BBS saying in the late 2000s and early 2010s that it was delusional fanwank to think the TNG cast would ever get another TV show or a movie. The "Prime" timeline was said to have been run into ground, moribund and dead in the water. All the energy and excitement was for the 2009 film, and THAT was the future of Trek. Interesting to see how that flipped. But disappointment with JJ's choices in HOW to retell ST TOS story is not an argument against doing an Alt timeline story at all. It's only an argument against JJ doing it.

In the same way, the work of JJ and Rian Johnson in SW are not an argument against continuing the Prime timeline of a franchise. Both Prime and Alt timeline stories can be great or awful.

 

[Tarek71]

It would just be the 65 movie, and Kylo Ren has already done that.

If a long, long time ago means 65 million years ago. It might mean the 19th century AD. Not sure we have ever gotten a definitive answer on what exact Earth years we are talking about.

 

[DigificWriter]

@Tarek71 You clearly don't understand what the World Between Worlds is if you think that it could somehow be used as a narrative justification for excising things that you don't like from having occurred in the SWU.

 

[Reverend]

If a long, long time ago means 65 million years ago. It might mean the 19th century AD. Not sure we have ever gotten a definitive answer on what exact Earth years we are talking about.

You're doing it wrong. It's a space fantasy fairy tale, not science fiction.

 

[Tarek71]

@Tarek71 You clearly don't understand what the World Between Worlds is if you think that it could somehow be used as a narrative justification for excising things that you don't like from having occurred in the SWU.

Its whatever the writers say it is. But beyond that, if Ahsoka can be saved, than other changes seem possible. Pull Anakin out of that room, and let Mace Windu kill Palpatine. Or whatever you like. I am not aware of any definitive statement that Alt timelines are impossible, or even if they exist, they cant be set in motion by using the WBW. Even if there were, it could be retconned at the stroke of the pen. So I am not worried about how they do it. I just dont think they will do it.

 

[Reverend]

Its whatever the writers say it is. But beyond that, if Ahsoka can be saved, than other changes seem possible. Pull Anakin out of that room, and let Mace Windu kill Palpatine. Or whatever you like. I am not aware of any definitive statement that Alt timelines are impossible, or even if they exist, they cant be set in motion by using the WBW. Even if there were, it could be retconned at the stroke of the pen. So I am not worried about how they do it. I just dont think they will do it.

Star Wars just ain't that kind of beast my friend. Best you just accept that because this whole thing simply isn't happening.

I had a feeling something was offf with Hera beeing alone with out escort in the last 2 episodes, but now we know why, she doesn't have her own task force. She is basically General only in name. But even than it still doesn't make sense not to persue Hera request, since she just uncovered a huge Empire cell, in the most critical place for the New Republic.
Something feels off about this senators.

Not exactly. Generals aren't supposed to be laws unto themselves. She can't just take a task force and go without government approval. It's a Republic after all, not an Empire.
The more likely reason why it was just her last episode probably had more to do with simple expediency than anything else. It was simply faster to just jump in the Phantom with Chopper and go than requisition a whole squadron for what was essentially an unofficial snap inspection of a shipyard facility. That would require things like filling out a requisition form, filling a flight plan, making a report. Indeed mostly what she was there for was to give Ahsoka some official clout in her investigation, so with time being a factor it was more expedient to have her staff cover for her while she slipped away for half a day.
If having her showing up to a conference call with the Chancellor and the Senate Defence Committee in a flight suit, jacket and goggles weren't clue enough, Hera is not big on formalities, let alone military pomp. I'm sure she does own an actual NR uniform, I'm just not convinced she's ever actually worn it . . .

As I said before, I'm also still wondering if Ahsoka even official exists so far as the NR defence fleet is concerned. It's entirely possible this whole operation is off the books. Hera can get away with a lot if it's just small stuff, but jumping a whole task force to some random out of the way system is a whole other proposition.

 

[Tarek71]

Star Wars just ain't that kind of beast my friend. Best you just accept that because this whole thing simply isn't happening.

The current corporate and creative leadership is not likely to do that. Agree. But nothing to with what kind of "beast" it is. It's the leadership of the franchise.

 

[Reverend]

Fun little detail I caught in the descriptive audio track; the wooden practice swords are referred to as "bokken sabers". "Bokken" literally just means "wooden sword" in Japanese, though more relevantly is the term used for just such training implements in kendo and kenjutsu in general. Nice way to distinguish them from actual training sabres.

I also wondered at the dojo commands Huyang was giving. They certainly had a Japanese ring to them, but not being at all knowledgeable in spoken Japanese, my attempts to translate haven't yielding anything. Google translate is no help, and skimming through lists of Kendo dojo commands doesn't seem to show up anything similar. So it's probably not Japanese at all, just something they made up to sound Japanese.

Side note: forgot to mention it before, but Huyang's line about historically there being very few Mandalorian Jedi seems like tacit confirmation that while Tarre Vizsla may have been the first, he probably wasn't the only one before now.

 

[Set Harth]

i was always under the impression that you would need to have some sort of measurable innate power/connection to the Force in order to begin training as a Force user

so far so good...

( let's disregard the awful Midichlorian concept for a moment).

They're the same picture.