I'll bet Skye planted something on Coulson.
Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)
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I think there's a good idea how this episode is going to end.
Act III:
Oh, well. At least Skye kicked butt, and Hunter was around.
Careful, Colson: the idealism might prove a liability.
A hard sequence between Fitz and Simmons. And he didn't even let her say her piece!
Finally: More hints of a possible connection between Raina and Skye. And I find 33's and Whitehall's exchange about the tracker to be fascinating. I wonder what that will lead to....
Oh, well. At least Skye kicked butt, and Hunter was around.
Careful, Colson: the idealism might prove a liability.
A hard sequence between Fitz and Simmons. And he didn't even let her say her piece!
Finally: More hints of a possible connection between Raina and Skye. And I find 33's and Whitehall's exchange about the tracker to be fascinating. I wonder what that will lead to....
Act IV:
And the Koenigs have no idea of the irony. So...how many are there, then? And why are they tight-lipped about it?
Beware, Simmons. Behind every legend, there's always a bit of truth.
Glad to see Fitz using his Dwarfs again. And Simmons is finishing his sentences again (where Mack can't)! Looking like the typical reconciliation story...but then, this is a Joss Whedon show.
More Skye vs. Raina...and an interesting backstory. And...is it just me, or does Raina quote Capt. Pike ("part of something better, something special").
AND...the Ancients, and the Kree! All is revealed!
And Mack...it figures.
Act V:
Guess the guy's not going that easily...but NOW!!!
And was there a special significance to Coulson's last line about you-know-who...?
And the Koenigs have no idea of the irony. So...how many are there, then? And why are they tight-lipped about it?
Beware, Simmons. Behind every legend, there's always a bit of truth.
Glad to see Fitz using his Dwarfs again. And Simmons is finishing his sentences again (where Mack can't)! Looking like the typical reconciliation story...but then, this is a Joss Whedon show.
More Skye vs. Raina...and an interesting backstory. And...is it just me, or does Raina quote Capt. Pike ("part of something better, something special").
AND...the Ancients, and the Kree! All is revealed!
And Mack...it figures.
Considering his lack of general characterization beyond "helpful cool guy", he was frankly the most likely candidate for "red shirt", TBH. *sigh*
But then, he had to "go" in some way, for Fitz/Simmons.
But then, he had to "go" in some way, for Fitz/Simmons.
Act V:
Guess the guy's not going that easily...but NOW!!!
And WARD! IS! BACK!
And at last, Skye is going to her father!
And at last, Skye is going to her father!
And was there a special significance to Coulson's last line about you-know-who...?
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I think screaming in agony is a better call for help than three tugs.
Although this show is continuing the trend that being a comic book character is actually a good way to end up dead.
Although this show is continuing the trend that being a comic book character is actually a good way to end up dead.
Fixed that for you.
^Frankly, that joke never gets...not old.... 
Epilogue:
Whitehall NOT liking you-know-who's call. Interesting....
Liking the trailer for the "winter finale"! Cannot wait.
Epilogue:
Whitehall NOT liking you-know-who's call. Interesting....
Liking the trailer for the "winter finale"! Cannot wait.
Apologies for my comic-book ignorance, but: is Mack a comic book character?
But then, I doubt Mockingbird's got much of a target on her back.
(Of course, this is a Joss Whedon show...so what do we know?)
They just told us she's Daisy Johnson. And her dad is Hyde.
Or was Daisy Bell playing in the music box a red herring do we think?
I'm sure Reinhardt got a trial. I mean, are we supposed to believe that the Allies in the MCU gave Hermann Göring a trial, but not a commander in Hydra?
This is an excellent argument for SHIELD not recruiting Hydra members who then got the chance to rebuild their secret cabal from within (and, by extension to the real world, for the Western powers not to have recruited prominent Nazis to the Western intelligence and defense agencies for use in the Cold War). It is also an excellent argument greater openness and transparency in how SHIELD and security agencies operate, since it's much harder for a conspiracy like Hydra to undertake major operations (such as capturing village elders in China in 1989) in secret if the agency they are infiltrating is itself not very secretive.
It is not a very good argument for denying someone their right to a trial.
It's notable that so many of the older characters in Agents of SHIELD, including Coulson, seem to have never had children. The father/daughter aspect to his relationship with Skye is especially notable. (And I pick up a definite family/father-mother-daughter vibe between him, Skye, and May).
I'm genuinely curious where this will go. It would be easy to do an "I-had-feelings-for-you-too-but-I-didn't-want-to-admit-it-to-myself" route with Jemma, but I think it might be interesting to do a version of their story where Jemma honestly had never thought or felt that way about Leo until he confessed to her.
And she brings up a really good point in her discussion with Bobbi -- Leo didn't give her any time to process this revelation at all. It was just, "I'm in love with you, boom, I've pressed the button now I'm going to die to save you." Which, seen in a certain light, could be seen as very douchey or selfish of him. I could legit see her being pissed at him over it.
But I definitely like the FitzSimmons arc. I could see it being a very emotionally truthful route for them to go if they never hook up and Jemma only ever wants to be friends -- but if she were to decide to see where her and Leo's relationship goes if she tries something else, I think that might be a very truthful creative decision, too. To me, those are the best kinds of fictional relationships: Ones where you can believe the characters could have real and vivid emotional connections with one-another outside of the "romantic couple in a story" paradigm.
Eh, I mean, those are pretty generic words. Pike in ST09 was hardly the first fictional character to use those turns of phrase.
I think it was Tripp that Jemma had a bit of a thing for, not Mack? Mack was the guy who's just been a friend and counselor to Fitz?
This will be interesting. I'm really curious what Ward's goal is here -- whose side is he on? Hydra or SHIELD or neither? Was it all just an elaborate ploy to get at Skye?
And what IS his goal once he's taken her prisoner? Fire up the brainwashing machine and mind-mojoing her into being in love with him? Just trying to "prove" to her that he's really a good guy underneath it all? Get her to help him take down Hydra? Get her to help him take over Hydra?
What does Grant want?
And what IS his goal once he's taken her prisoner? Fire up the brainwashing machine and mind-mojoing her into being in love with him? Just trying to "prove" to her that he's really a good guy underneath it all? Get her to help him take down Hydra? Get her to help him take over Hydra?
What does Grant want?
Well, to be fair, I think we were supposed to get the idea in the first Captain America that Red Skull and Co. were "worse" than the Nazis. Besides, for all intents and purposes, Goring was no longer a threat, whereas Reinhardt himself basically laid the case that he himself still was.
Besides, simply assuming Reinhardt got a trial is just speculation. He was captured by an intelligence agency (Carter's), and then interrogated, and then locked up for would-be eternity. That's all we know.
She seemed to claim this in her conversation with Mockingbird...but then, she could just as easily been putting up a front to get her to lay off.
That's a very odd way of seeing it. Because the way I see it, as far as Fitz was concerned, they were going to die anyway--so it was now-or-never to confess his feelings. I'd hardly call that "douchey".
And yet that should in no way indicate that romance should be kept out of the equation.
It just seemed too "word-for-word" to just be shrugged off. But that's just me.
I mean in the sense of Mack "filling in" for Jemma. The fact that he was doing such a good job (and, for a time, a BETTER job) clearly put a wedge between Fitz and her.
As far as "sides", I REALLY think the answer is "neither".
He was loyal to Garrett and Garrett alone in Season 1--his conversations made it clear he wasn't Mr. HYDRA, per se...he just did what he did out of loyalty to the man who, whatever his faults, got him out of the gutter and taught him to make something of his life.
With Garrett gone, he has no more loyalties, per se. But he REALLY seems to care for Skye...as creepy as that might be.
With Garrett gone, he has no more loyalties, per se. But he REALLY seems to care for Skye...as creepy as that might be.
I can't say I agree with that notion at all. I mean, philosophically, the key difference between 1940s-era Hydra and the Nazis are that 1940s-era Hydra seems to have abandoned worship of Hitler and may not believe in the racial superiority of Germans. But they were still part of the Nazi power structure, were still relying on the German Army to protect them from the Allies, and were still at best complicit in, and more likely active participants in, the Holocaust and numerous other Nazi war crimes. And that's to say nothing of their desire to commit mass genocide themselves.
I don't think we're supposed to view Hydra as "worse" than the Nazis. Throughout the film, they represent a distinct threat, but one that's joined at the hip with the Third Reich. As the film reaches the finale, I think we're supposed to recognize that in the wake of the fall of Berlin, Hydra represents a more immediate threat via Operation Valkyrie. But "better" or "worse?" I don't see a meaningful difference.
In moral terms, Hydra and the Nazis are basically the same. Even into the 21st Century, Hydra's motivating philosophy still just strikes me as a variation on Nazi fascism rather than a totally divergent political ideology. Reinhardt is apparently still out for the ability to engage in mass genocide in the form of an extinction-level event, after all.
Which is absurd. Reinhardt was no more a threat than Göring so long as he was imprisoned. It was SHIELD's susceptibility to Hydra infiltration that led to his becoming a threat again, not the fact that he wasn't summarily executed.
It is, indeed, conjecture. It's conjecture based upon both real history, upon the basic values the U.S. and U.K. were fighting for in World War II, and upon the values espoused by Coulson as being the values of SHIELD in various episodes of Agents. Remember, even in the midst of the Hydra uprising, Coulson refused to allow Victoria Hand to be summarily executed, calling it "murder without consideration."
I don't for one second believe that Agent Carter would allow someone to be executed or imprisoned for life without a trial.
Possible, but I don't think it's likely. I think if she just wanted the conversation to go away, she would have pulled an "I can't do this" and walked away like she did with Leo earlier in the season. I think two scenarios are more likely:
1. She is telling the complete truth: She had only platonic feelings for Leo up until that point and had never considered any alternative; or,
2. She had romantic feelings for him, but still has not been able to admit this to herself.
I think either scenario is true to her character and emotionally honest. I think it might be more interesting if scenario #1 is the case -- if she had honestly never felt that way about him before, and now has to decide if she only wants friendship or if she feels like there's the potential for something else to grow there.
I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that way of looking at Leo's behavior. But if you look at it from another POV -- it's like, why did you do this one second before seemingly consigning yourself to death on my behalf? Why did you do this without giving me time to process the situation before hitting the button? If you're worried that I'm not going to press the button to detonate the explosion in time to keep the air from running out, why tell me at all in the first place? Why did you do this moments before forcing me to try to save you -- and in the process, be unable to keep you from suffering brain damage?
There's a good chance that there's some anger and resentment there over how Leo "came out" to her, and some guilt over the fact that he has brain damage because she wasn't able to get him to the surface in time.
These may not be strictly rational reactions, but they're not entirely wrong in pointing out that there is something a little bit selfish about waiting until moments before you're about to sacrifice yourself to save someone to tell them how you feel. It's notable that Leo apparently didn't even consider the option of Jemma pulling him up even if only she got the oxygen burst. It's almost like he wanted to die saving her -- or at least it could look that way.
That doesn't mean Leo shouldn't have told her, or that there isn't still something noble about it, too. It just means, human beings have a complex mixture of both selfish and altruistic motivations, and that sometimes people can only perceive the selfish side and not the altruistic side. Particularly when they're dealing with both the potential loss of someone they love, and their own uncertainty about their relationship in the wake of a really dramatic revelation undertaken at a moment of extreme trauma and duress.
Oh, certainly. I ship FitzSimmons -- I want them to get together and stay together. But I also want their relationship to be emotionally truthful, and not to fit some two-dimensional relationship paradigm. For lack of a better term, I want their relationship to be romantic, not romanticized.
Ah, okay, I see what you're saying. I don't agree with it, though -- I think there's no particular reason why Leo and Mack couldn't have a really great friendship, and why Mack might not be able to have his own unique way of communicating with Leo that Jemma can't quite match, while Leo and Jemma still end up in a relationship. Platonic friendship needn't be any threat to romantic love. Especially when you basically live in such close quarters -- these poor SHIELD agents all need to be able to take a break from one-another every now and then, even if they're in love!
Certainly possible. Then the question becomes, what's he playing at? What's his game? Why rejoin Hydra after delivering Bakshi into Coulson's hands? Why do Coulson the favor?
Well. I'd say he cares about Skye. That's very different from caring for Skye. I'm more inclined to view Grant's feelings towards Skye as being controlling and emotionally abusive than about being genuine love.
Because you don't kidnap someone you love.
I'm trying to figure out how he'd tug on it at all while he had all his weight on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_MacKenzie
I think both Lance Hunter and Bobbi Morse have reasons to be concerned.
Fine episode. For some reason it felt like a filler in the end even though they covered quite a bit. It just felt lacking. With that said, it wasn't bad.
It's good they finally name dropped the Kree in the MCU (labeling not naming).
Also, I hope they didn't kill Mac and he still alive after being altered. He seemed stronger so maybe he survived the fall. I like the character.
It's good they finally name dropped the Kree in the MCU (labeling not naming).
Also, I hope they didn't kill Mac and he still alive after being altered. He seemed stronger so maybe he survived the fall. I like the character.
Sorry, you two are having a great conversation and I wasn't sure where to jump in...
I think Gemma has a reason to be angry that Leo didn't bring up his feelings weeks/months/years earlier, which would have given her time to process things.
Here is the thing about relationships: Just because I don't feel the exact same things at the exact same times, doesn't mean I wouldn't want to be with someone. Gemma has a right to feel love in a different way, or start feeling at a different point, for different reasons, and still be able to say, "Yes, I return your feelings."
I agree with both sides for different reasons.
When they told Mac to pull on the rope, did anyone else think of this:
Wow, almost nothing went Shields way this time.
I like that the fake May's voice is affected as well as her appearance. Skye was fighting above her class, she seemed to do pretty good even though she was losing.
I wonder what Mac is "becoming"? He certainly might not be dead, but he may no longer be Mac anymore, either.
What kind of plan was he and Bobbi into that he didn't want Hunter in on? More wheels within wheels?
Wow, almost nothing went Shields way this time.
I like that the fake May's voice is affected as well as her appearance. Skye was fighting above her class, she seemed to do pretty good even though she was losing.
I wonder what Mac is "becoming"? He certainly might not be dead, but he may no longer be Mac anymore, either.
What kind of plan was he and Bobbi into that he didn't want Hunter in on? More wheels within wheels?
I don't recall the word 'plan' being used. I think he said something like "does Hunter know about the other thing"[paraphrase].
Leading the fan boy in me to hope Mack was referring to Clint Barton.
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