Spoilers Agatha All Along discussion and spoilers.

[Jayson1]

This is my biggest problem with the finale. She clearly is a witch serial killer, it's not even just seems like. And I've seen some people who like that she's still obviously a bad person and wasn't magically transformed into a hero against the character's intention. And I can see that, too.

But for it to work properly I really feel like we needed more context of where the hell that came from before Billy just accepts her and moves on. The Nicholas Scratch stuff was great and added great context to Agatha's relationship to Billy to boot, but it only tells half the story of why Agatha is the way she is.

I think the finale really needed another 10 or 15 minutes at the start to show us what the hell actually happened with Death and/or Agatha's Mom/original coven so that we better understand why she had already chosen to be so cynically untrusting that she'd rather just kill people and take their stuff than give them a chance, rather than just giving us her barefoot and pregnant in the woods and already on that path before we meet her.

It does sort of end like in Wandavision. Despite her enslaving a whole town, you are suppose to feel bad for at the end because of the loss of her family and because we clearly come into the show liking the character from the previous movies. In this show we are suppose to give Agatha a break from the serial witch killing because she is the main character and she can be funny with a quirky personality. I can go with it though since Billy is someone who is feeling guilty over get the other characters killed by creating the Witches Road. Billy is not exactly a hero at the end of this story. He is someone who has simply come to terms with who he is and someone with a goal in finding his brother.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It does sort of end like in Wandavision. Despite her enslaving a whole town, you are suppose to feel bad for at the end because of the loss of her family and because we clearly come into the show liking the character from the previous movies. In this show we are suppose to give Agatha a break from the serial witch killing because she is the main character and she can be funny with a quirky personality. I can go with it though since Billy is someone who is feeling guilty over get the other characters killed by creating the Witches Road. Billy is not exactly a hero at the end of this story. He is someone who has simply come to terms with who he is and someone with a goal in finding his brother.

I think Billy is sort of the hero in that he is, through the whole show, trying to make Agatha a better person and put her back in touch with the humanity she hasn't really willingly acknowledged since before Nicholas was born. In that respect it makes sense to me that her finally opening up to him about Nicholas makes him want to keep encouraging her to be better rather than abandon her. (And it's not wrong that he did ultimately save Jen's life, at least.)

It's just really harsh on the viewer who just watched a whole montage of Agatha murdering dozens of more or less innocent people and who has still never been given any understanding of why she really is the way she is. It would be easier for viewers to accept giving her another chance if they saw why she became that person - just like we got to see Wanda and Vision's relationship and loss that made her become the person who created the Hex.

Though, in fairness, Agatha did actually die for her crimes in the end, even if she seems weirdly happy about it.

 

[Xerxes82]

Also, while I understand Agatha's magic-absorbing/witch killing powers, I feel like the whole quick-cut aspect of the flashback just made her seem like a witch serial killer. I am under the impression she only needed to do that when her magic was depleted. It's not like we saw her doing much with it while she wandered the woods with her son. Why did she keep hunting down covens and killing them? I feel like this could have been made a bit cleaner if it didn't seem to imply it happened so frequently.

I think after whatever happened with her mother and her original coven that Agatha simply hated witch covens and the witches in them. That was lashing out at the connection they represented whenever she encountered it. And the power boost was just a bonus.

It seemed to be implied that the relationship with Death was more or less due to Agatha's proclivity for murder. But also that Agatha recognizes that relationship is fundamentally toxic. She realizes the wrongness of both her attitude and her actions, but doesn't know how to change.

That seems to be why she cares for Billy. He reminds her of Nicky because he urges her to connect with others and eschew her darker impulses. She may be the devil on his shoulder, but he is the angel on hers in a way.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

She may be the devil on his shoulder, but he is the angel on hers in a way.

I agree with your whole post but this part in particular stands out. That's a great way of looking at their relationship.

 

[Tuskin38]

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It's funny, rewatching the performance of the song at D23, I noticed Debra doesn't sing for most of it, probably because her character doesn't know the words, and I guess they wanted to foreshadow it idk

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[Captain Shaw]

I have the witches road song in my head

 

[Jayson1]

So I wonder about Death. Did she hook up with Thanos before Agatha or I wonder if they will use her to bring Thanos back to life. I did hear some talk about maybe bringing Thanos back and from what I understand they dated in the comic books.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So I wonder about Death. Did she hook up with Thanos before Agatha or I wonder if they will use her to bring Thanos back to life. I did hear some talk about maybe bringing Thanos back and from what I understand they dated in the comic books.

She's not too keen on the back to life thing. And in the comics it was mostly one sided.

We did see a Zombie Thanos in the Marvel preview reel .

 

[The Nth Doctor]

We did see a Zombie Thanos in the Marvel preview reel .

Damn...I would love to hear Aubrey Plaza pop up in Marvel Zombies.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The lacy headcover worn by Death/Rio looked a lot like a mantilla and her headdress brings to mind a peineta

 

[Galaxy]

I'm not crazy about an episode revolving around tarot, because Agatha is right -- it's all fabricated. It isn't even ancient mythology -- it was just a card game for centuries, until 18th-century occultists invented a bunch of fake history and mythology around the cards and started pretending they had divination powers. I guess the episode acknowledged that to an extent by saying it was "intuitive," implying that it's not that the cards themselves have power as that someone with power, like Lilia, can influence them or use them as a tool.

Out of curiosity, in a fictional universe with witches , and wizards, and super heroes (Iron Man is probably the most realistic) why do you consider tarot cards to be a bridge to far?

I have the witches road song in my head

Yes!

 

[Galaxy]

I really enjoyed this show! I like that it was not the trope of good fighting evil. One could sympathize with all characters, and yet the majority of them had done bad things. Even death was both shown as both a companion as we saw with Alice, yet she was willing to torment Agatha to death with a thousand cuts.

For those more into the marvel comics, In the hierarchy of the Marvelverse where is Death? I guess she is a God like Zeus and Thor would be? Even if Agatha stated that she and Billz/Wiccan can not defeat her, there were able to hold her at bay for a while. I wonder what would happen to her of Thor brings the hammer down?

 

[Starkers]

Well having had my doubts a few episodes in I have to say overall that this was one of the better MCU shows, certainly one of the more coherent ones as everything did tie together mostly. It sorta was Agatha all along, even though it was also Billy all along. Let's be honest when we had the song in WandaVision it hadn't been Agatha all alone because it was Wanda all along just as much.

I agree with @The Nightmare Doctor (I think) who suggested Nick looked a bit like Billy and Tommy, I thought that too.

I also agree with @Christopher (again I think) who said Billy's decision to go from banishing Agatha to teaming up with her was very abrupt, not saying it didn't make sense, it just needed a bit more time to breathe.

Seeing Agatha murder witches through time could reinforce the notion that she murdered covens infrequently when her power was low, if her travels with Nick hadn't suggested it was a way more regular occurrence!

While in a lot of ways I'm glad they didn't soften Agatha too much in the end, I also wish she wasn't quite the witchy serial killer she seems to be!

 

[Captaindemotion]

I haven’t commented on this thread for a while but have been watching the show and it definitely stuck the landing (on its broom, presumably). I didn’t realise that a double bill would land this week and actually thought that episode 8 was giving us a very open ended finale that actually still worked for me: I was surprised when my tv offered me the option to watch the next episode. But episode 9 brought things together very nicely. It can work as an ending to these characters’ story or stories but hopefully will instead continue and allow us to see them find Tommy (or even Wanda).

 

[Christopher]

Out of curiosity, in a fictional universe with witches , and wizards, and super heroes (Iron Man is probably the most realistic) why do you consider tarot cards to be a bridge to far?

Wizards and superheroes don't exist in real life, and people accept that they're fictional. But tarot cards do exist, and many people believe the myth that they actually do have some kind of supernatural power. And many con artists have used them to trick people out of their money. I hate deception and dishonesty, and it's the fact that tarot cards are a hoax in real life that makes me dislike seeing them depicted uncritically in fiction. (Back in college, I was startled and saddened to discover that a friend I considered intelligent and well-educated actually believed in tarot cartomancy.)

Which is why I appreciated it that the episode did depict them somewhat critically, with Agatha dismissing them as a scam and the story and dialogue suggesting that the cards were not the source of the power but were just a tool that the witches' own powers could influence.

For those more into the marvel comics, In the hierarchy of the Marvelverse where is Death? I guess she is a God like Zeus and Thor would be? Even if Agatha stated that she and Billz/Wiccan can not defeat her, there were able to hold her at bay for a while. I wonder what would happen to her of Thor brings the hammer down?

She's exactly what it says on the tin, the embodiment of death itself, the same as her Goth-girl counterpart in DC's Sandman comics. Basically she's the Grim Reaper, the Angel of Death. She's a cosmic being and the "sister" of Eternity, whom we met in Thor: Love and Thunder. Which makes her above the various pantheons of Marvel gods, since even they can die. (Though at least one story has claimed that the monotheistic supreme God created her along with the universe.)

Death (Earth-616)

Death is a cosmic being and the personification of death itself. It can assume many forms of any gender[15] but most often a cloaked skeleton or a woman.[16] The skeleton changes for each species.[17] Although Death is seen as the "enemy" of life[18] and her "brother" Eternity,[19] she is an...

marvel.fandom.com

Although the MCU version seems to be less cosmic, since they said she was "the original Green Witch," suggesting an ascended human rather than a cosmic being formed in the creation of the universe and taking many forms depending on the observer.

I also agree with @Christopher (again I think) who said Billy's decision to go from banishing Agatha to teaming up with her was very abrupt, not saying it didn't make sense, it just needed a bit more time to breathe.

Yeah. I think he took pity on her when she admitted he reminded her of Nicky, and maybe realized she'd been kind of a mother figure to him. Maybe he saw something redeemable in her, and figured she couldn't do much harm as a ghost. Still, it was a bit cursory.

While in a lot of ways I'm glad they didn't soften Agatha too much in the end, I also wish she wasn't quite the witchy serial killer she seems to be!

I think the idea was that Nicky had the potential to redeem her, since he didn't like her killing witches; but when he died, there was nobody to set her straight and she embraced the darkness. Billy's the first person since then whom she's connected to in the same way, who has the potential to redeem her to some extent.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Although the MCU version seems to be less cosmic, since they said she was "the original Green Witch," suggesting an ascended human rather than a cosmic being formed in the creation of the universe and taking many forms depending on the observer.

I don't think they meant she was ever human. They were saying that green witchcraft is all about the cycle of life and death, so Death herself is fundamentally a part of that. Which means she's easily able to pass as a 'green witch' and also labeling herself as 'the original Green Witch' was a tongue in cheek way of telling them who she actually is without coming right out and saying it (because Death herself existed before any actual green witch).

 

[eschaton]

I think Billy is sort of the hero in that he is, through the whole show, trying to make Agatha a better person and put her back in touch with the humanity she hasn't really willingly acknowledged since before Nicholas was born. In that respect it makes sense to me that her finally opening up to him about Nicholas makes him want to keep encouraging her to be better rather than abandon her. (And it's not wrong that he did ultimately save Jen's life, at least.)

It's just really harsh on the viewer who just watched a whole montage of Agatha murdering dozens of more or less innocent people and who has still never been given any understanding of why she really is the way she is. It would be easier for viewers to accept giving her another chance if they saw why she became that person - just like we got to see Wanda and Vision's relationship and loss that made her become the person who created the Hex.

Though, in fairness, Agatha did actually die for her crimes in the end, even if she seems weirdly happy about it.

Yeah, I think the whole flashback would have been more powerful if we saw the conversation with Nicholas where he asks why she kills witches happen earlier, and then she tries to be a better person, so her son will respect her. Then after he dies, she reverts back to her old ways.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, I think the whole flashback would have been more powerful if we saw the conversation with Nicholas where he asks why she kills witches happen earlier, and then she tries to be a better person, so her son will respect her. Then after he dies, she reverts back to her old ways.

I dunno, I kind of prefer the implication that Nick had the potential to inspire her to change, but died before he really had the chance. It's subtler that way.

 

[Seven of Five]

What an ending. There were lots of tense moments throughout, and the two episodes together just flew by.

I was welling up watching Agahtha's past, giving her history of killing witches during her when she had more humanity.

I like how Agatha seemed to end up as Casper's mean Aunt.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I agree with @The Nightmare Doctor (I think) who suggested Nick looked a bit like Billy and Tommy, I thought that too.

Yup, that was me. I even pulled up the actor's name because I thought there was a possibility that he was related either of the actors who played young Billy and Tommy.

Although the MCU version seems to be less cosmic, since they said she was "the original Green Witch," suggesting an ascended human rather than a cosmic being formed in the creation of the universe and taking many forms depending on the observer.

I don't think they meant she was ever human. They were saying that green witchcraft is all about the cycle of life and death, so Death herself is fundamentally a part of that. Which means she's easily able to pass as a 'green witch' and also labeling herself as 'the original Green Witch' was a tongue in cheek way of telling them who she actually is without coming right out and saying it (because Death herself existed before any actual green witch).

I agree with Grendelsbayne on this point. I read "the original Green Witch" line to refer her as the beginning and inspiration of the idea behind the Green Witch.