Spoilers Agatha All Along discussion and spoilers.

[Christopher]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say I kinda missed the police procedural element of the show once they expanded things and introduced loads of new characters. I still loved the show, I just missed the simplicity of it.

I felt Lucifer leaned too much into the worst cliches of modern procedurals, especially the murders-of-the-week always resonating exactly with the main characters' current personal issues. I mean, it worked for the narcissistic Lucifer to filter every case through "How does this benefit me?", but the writing got to the point where even Chloe, in the face of a life-and-death hostage situation, seemed more preoccupied with how it gave her insight into her relationship with Lucifer than about helping the people in need. It's a common failing of modern serialized shows that the characters seem more preoccupied with their own selfish problems than with helping other people, but Lucifer took it to extremes.

Back in the early seasons, I kept expecting them to do something where, say, a bunch of demons or damned souls escaped from Hell due to Lucifer's absence and started killing people on Earth, and Lucifer had to track them down one by one as a season-long arc. But I think they only did one episode like that and then went back to just ordinary homicides.

 

[kirk55555]

I actually liked it more once it started focusing more on the supernatural Heaven/Hell side of things. The cop cases were pretty good, but it was the other stuff that made it stand out more.

Oh I loved the supernatural aspects of the show, but I just feel that the police stuff gave it all a good foundation to sit on. Honestly, once the detective finally learns that he's the real Lucifer I don't get much enjoyment from the show and it just gets weird.

 

[Tuskin38]

I didn’t notice until episode 8, but Billy has a Buffy: Once More With Feeling poster in his bedroom

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I spent the last act of the penultimate episode wondering how there could be another episode, considering everything seemed to wrap up nicely. Even when the conclusion hit and we discover the Witches' Road was a reality constructed by Billy, I still wasn't quite convinced whole another episode was needed.

But everything clicked into place when I finally realized the Ballad was simply a con created by Agatha to devour other witches and the Road itself never existed. The entirety of the season makes much more sense upon knowing the Road's existence, rules, and behavior were all derived from a powerful but young being with an identity crisis. A being living as a goth teenager with strongly-held beliefs of fictional takes on witchcraft, whether they were films, novels, or even fake histories such as tarot cards.

I'm glad the tragedy of Nicholas Scratch was a deal with Death to postpone his premature demise and not a trade with Mephisto (or anyone else) to gain possession of the Darkhold. Instead, Agatha's fear of facing him was more about her continued conquest of killing witches to gain power, against what he wanted...and using the song he made up! And the timing of Death's arrival couldn't be a coincidence: The moment he stood against his mother, that was the end because he was no longer unwittingly helping Death.

Maybe it was just me, but Abel Lysenko's Nicholas Scratch looked and acted a lot like young Tommy and Billy and I can't help but wonder if that was a deliberate casting choice to show why Agatha was drawn towards them (besides their unique existence and power potential).

As much I enjoyed their visuals and creepiness, the Salem Seven seemed nothing more than a plot device, which is a shame. I don't hold any allegiances to them from the comics but they seemed like wasted potential here.

Overall, I loved the season and I hope we get to see Agatha and Billy's journey to find Tommy in whatever form that takes. Perhaps they'll cross paths in the Vision show (yes, I know Jac Shaeffer is no longer involved with that production).

Lastly, we got two more versions of the Ballad (including a cover from Japanese Breakfast!). What's the final count? I can't wait for the album (okay, Spotify playlist...).

 

[Nerys Myk]

IIRC, Agatha spent some time as a ghost in the comics.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

This was outstanding.

 

[thribs]

No post credit scene with Death and Deadpool? That feels like a waste.

 

[Jayson1]

The ending is going to be kind of bad if they don't get a season 2.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The ending is going to be kind of bad if they don't get a season 2.

I don't think this is intended to set-up a season 2. It's intended to set up some other project. Though which one and will it actually happen is hard to say. The biggest possibilities are probably the Young Avengers or the Scarlet Witch project, if they ultimately make those.

 

[thribs]

Just another tie in for the Young Avengers movie I bet

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I don't think this is intended to set-up a season 2. It's intended to set up some other project. Though which one and will it actually happen is hard to say. The biggest possibilities are probably the Young Avengers or the Scarlet Witch project, if they ultimately make those.

Not only that, but the aforementioned Vision series can be seen as the concluding part of a trilogy alongside WandaVision and Agatha All Along. Although I haven't seen anyone who is involved with that show make such a statement, just speculation by the media and people like myself. Which lead to my further speculation that Agatha and Billy (and Tommy) could potentially show up in that series.

Just another tie in for the Young Avengers movie I bet

Except a Young Avengers film or series has never been announced or even hinted at by Feige or anyone else. It's pure fan speculation supported only by certain characters showing up. Only the The Marvels post-credits scene hints at that possibility. And as discussed in the MCU thread, the very name Young Avengers doesn't even work.

Besides, Agatha and Billy's journey takes too much time and setup to work for such a potential film (although it could work for a potential series). Either way, I think the Vision show is much more likely.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Not only that, but the aforementioned Vision series can be seen as the concluding part of a trilogy alongside WandaVision and Agatha All Along. Although I haven't seen anyone who is involved with that show make such a statement, just speculation by the media and people like myself. Which lead to my further speculation that Agatha and Billy (and Tommy) could potentially show up in that series.


Except a Young Avengers film or series has never been announced or even hinted at by Feige or anyone else. It's pure fan speculation supported only by certain characters showing up. Only the The Marvels post-credits scene hints at that possibility. And as discussed in the MCU thread, the very name Young Avengers doesn't even work.

Besides, Agatha and Billy's journey takes too much time and setup to work for such a potential film (although it could work for a potential series). Either way, I think the Vision show is much more likely.

I agree VQ could be viewed as a sort of trilogy ender and could easily still include these characters, but I disagree it could properly end this story. As a show about Vision it would need to focus on his experience and viewpoint. Problem being Vision is not actually the kids' father, both literally (it was a different Vision) and personally (he isn't really himself anymore and clearly struggles to even feel any humanity inside at all). Billy and Tommy's role in his story is more likely to be him struggling to connect with them and failing as part of his attempt to sort out who he actually is than it is to be about any kind of major family reunion. And I suspect that would make them a much smaller part of VQ overall.

If this does get fully finished, my guess is VQ would be another stop on the road that involves him building Viv Vision as part of his attempt to regain his humanity and then we'd move on to the Young Avengers/Scarlet Witch (or whatever they ultimately call it) where Billy, Tommy, Viv and some of the other young heroes go to rescue Wanda from hell (which is what the original Young Avengers story was in the comics). And yes, I think that project would probably be a show, not a film.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I agree VQ could be viewed as a sort of trilogy ender and could easily still include these characters, but I disagree it could properly end this story. As a show about Vision it would need to focus on his experience and viewpoint. Problem being Vision is not actually the kids' father, both literally (it was a different Vision) and personally (he isn't really himself anymore and clearly struggles to even feel any humanity inside at all). Billy and Tommy's role in his story is more likely to be him struggling to connect with them and failing as part of his attempt to sort out who he actually is than it is to be about any kind of major family reunion. And I suspect that would make them a much smaller part of VQ overall.

If this does get fully finished, my guess is VQ would be another stop on the road that involves him building Viv Vision as part of his attempt to regain his humanity and then we'd move on to the Young Avengers/Scarlet Witch (or whatever they ultimately call it) where Billy, Tommy, Viv and some of the other young heroes go to rescue Wanda from hell (which is what the original Young Avengers story was in the comics). And yes, I think that project would probably be a show, not a film.

That makes more sense than my musings. Hopefully that's what they're working towards.

...and  then we finally get Mephisto!

 

[eschaton]

Man, that was a fantastic end to the season. Episode 8 would have worked fine as a season finale - it was written like one. But I liked the jarring aspect of Episode 9. We were out of familiar MCU territory and didn't really have a clue where the story was going, now that the plot of the season had been resolved. It was an extended epilogue, meditating on what the story meant as a whole.

Agatha All Along was a really ironic title for the series though, because it turned out Billy was the protagonist of the series. This was the Wiccan show, even if we find out a lot about Agatha along the way.

 

[thribs]

Death’s theme sounds familiar. I can’t place where though

 

[Christopher]

But I liked the jarring aspect of Episode 9. We were out of familiar MCU territory and didn't really have a clue where the story was going, now that the plot of the season had been resolved. It was an extended epilogue, meditating on what the story meant as a whole.

Oh, on the contrary, it was the revelation of what the story had really been about all along. Revealing that everything we'd been told about the Witches' Road was just a centuries-old scam, that Billy had unknowingly made it real with his powers, and that that was what tipped Agatha off that he was Wanda's son -- all of that was the climax of the story, not merely an epilogue. And as you say, this was Billy's show all along, and episode 9 was the climax of his character arc, his realization of what he'd done and wrestling with what to do about it, was the most important part of that story. We wouldn't have had a complete story arc without it.

That said, I found it kind of open-ended. Billy changing his mind about banishing Agatha seemed kind of abrupt. I guess they wanted to leave it open for a second season or something, but it felt a bit arbitrary. I was also a little surprised at what a small part Rio/Death played. Pivotal, sure, but brief and kind of anticlimactic.

Still, aside from that, it was quite effective. I loved how the episode used the song throughout as an evolving, unifying element and a key part of the storytelling. The whole show's done that, but never more so than here. My one problem with it is that Nicky's voice sounded autotuned when he sang it in the tavern.

I also love the revelation that the witch paraphernalia we've been seeing in the end titles all season was actually in Billy's room all along, a subtle clue that we didn't have enough info to recognize. We thought it was just a stylish, symbolic montage, but it was actually part of the storytelling, and I appreciate the deftness of that.

 

[Xerxes82]

Agatha All Along was a really ironic title for the series though, because it turned out Billy was the protagonist of the series. This was the Wiccan show, even if we find out a lot about Agatha along the way.

Billy was the protagonist, sure. But everything in the story only happens because of Agatha. So, it was literally Agatha All Along. The Ballad, the Road were all driving Billy to get what he thought he wanted, but even then in the end it was really Agatha who could help him get it.

 

[eschaton]

Oh, on the contrary, it was the revelation of what the story had really been about all along. Revealing that everything we'd been told about the Witches' Road was just a centuries-old scam, that Billy had unknowingly made it real with his powers, and that that was what tipped Agatha off that he was Wanda's son -- all of that was the climax of the story, not merely an epilogue. And as you say, this was Billy's show all along, and episode 9 was the climax of his character arc, his realization of what he'd done and wrestling with what to do about it, was the most important part of that story. We wouldn't have had a complete story arc without it.

I get you, but I feel like the closing minute of Episode 8 - where Billy looked around his room and realized it was all him - basically revealed all of that. Episode 9 was just elaborating/deepening that, along with Billy wrestling with the implications.

Oh, and of course the extended flashback to 1750, where we discover that Agatha's relationship with her son was actually pretty wholesome. It was a perfect choice to do this, not have him sold for the Darkhold or something similar from the comics.

Little aside, but while I have no issues with diversity in casting, I kept wondering where in 1750 colonial America this was that there were roughly equal numbers of free black and white peasants living without social segregation. This stuff doesn't bother me in fantasy settings and such, but when something is supposed to be a historic setting, I don't like antiracism-washing when we make segregated parts of real history seem contemporary.

Also, while I understand Agatha's magic-absorbing/witch killing powers, I feel like the whole quick-cut aspect of the flashback just made her seem like a witch serial killer. I am under the impression she only needed to do that when her magic was depleted. It's not like we saw her doing much with it while she wandered the woods with her son. Why did she keep hunting down covens and killing them? I feel like this could have been made a bit cleaner if it didn't seem to imply it happened so frequently.

 

[Christopher]

I get you, but I feel like the closing minute of Episode 8 - where Billy looked around his room and realized it was all him - basically revealed all of that. Episode 9 was just elaborating/deepening that, along with Billy wrestling with the implications.

No, the revelation at the end of episode 8 was just the beginning. It established what happened, but episode 9 explained why, which is even more important. At the end of episode 8, we knew nothing about Nicholas Scratch, nothing about how the idea of the Road came about and what it was really for, none of that. The end of episode 8 was just the end of the setup. Episode 9 was the payoff, both narratively and emotionally.

Little aside, but while I have no issues with diversity in casting, I kept wondering where in 1750 colonial America this was that there were roughly equal numbers of free black and white peasants living without social segregation. This stuff doesn't bother me in fantasy settings and such, but when something is supposed to be a historic setting, I don't like antiracism-washing when we make segregated parts of real history seem contemporary.

The groups we saw here were apparently "witch" communities, so these would have been marginalized people to begin with, coming together to build their own communities outside the mainstream. It makes perfect sense, then, that they would have been diverse, that they would have welcomed escaped slaves as well as persecuted women, gay people, etc.

Also, while I understand Agatha's magic-absorbing/witch killing powers, I feel like the whole quick-cut aspect of the flashback just made her seem like a witch serial killer. I am under the impression she only needed to do that when her magic was depleted. It's not like we saw her doing much with it while she wandered the woods with her son. Why did she keep hunting down covens and killing them? I feel like this could have been made a bit cleaner if it didn't seem to imply it happened so frequently.

Well, yeah, that's the idea. Agatha is a villain. Sure, she loved her kid, but so did Thanos.

Didn't her detective delusion in the first episode entail hunting a serial killer? Maybe that was a clue to her true nature. Another clue was the rumor that she was the only person ever to have come back alive from the Witches' Road. Now we know where that rumor came from -- another reason the final episode was the payoff, not just the epilogue. It's not an epilogue when the detective explains how and why the murder happened and exposes the characters' hidden secrets, it's the climax. Everything in the previous episodes was a clue to the mystery that was explained in the finale.

And Agatha would've gotten away with it too, if not for that meddling kid...

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Also, while I understand Agatha's magic-absorbing/witch killing powers, I feel like the whole quick-cut aspect of the flashback just made her seem like a witch serial killer. I am under the impression she only needed to do that when her magic was depleted. It's not like we saw her doing much with it while she wandered the woods with her son. Why did she keep hunting down covens and killing them? I feel like this could have been made a bit cleaner if it didn't seem to imply it happened so frequently.

This is my biggest problem with the finale. She clearly is a witch serial killer, it's not even just seems like. And I've seen some people who like that she's still obviously a bad person and wasn't magically transformed into a hero against the character's intention. And I can see that, too.

But for it to work properly I really feel like we needed more context of where the hell that came from before Billy just accepts her and moves on. The Nicholas Scratch stuff was great and added great context to Agatha's relationship to Billy to boot, but it only tells half the story of why Agatha is the way she is.

I think the finale really needed another 10 or 15 minutes at the start to show us what the hell actually happened with Death and/or Agatha's Mom/original coven so that we better understand why she had already chosen to be so cynically untrusting that she'd rather just kill people and take their stuff than give them a chance, rather than just giving us her barefoot and pregnant in the woods and already on that path before we meet her.