After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make sense.

[Timofnine]

I just re-watched Star Trek III, and after seeing Sareks behaviour in this movie you can see that he is acting almost exactly like the Vulcan's as depicted in Enterprise.

He is logical - yet still traces of emotion manage to get through.

Before the mind meld with Kirk, we see anger (through a slightly raised voice) and despair - Sarek speaks just like Soval would in a 'heated' conversation.

I think that people's opinion's of Vulcan's being totaly flat toned in expression comes from Voyager and TPTB's depiction of Tuvok. But what people need to remember is that Tuvok had an individual personality and his species should not be stereotyped by his behaviour. - I'm sure that there are many different extremes in Vulcan behaviour, and the Vulcan's that we see on screen prove this. If we can have extreme's in other races - why not Vulcan's?

Think of the depiction of Vulcan's in that quite forgetteble DS9 episode where a Vulcan crew is playing baseball against the stations crew. The Vulcan's believe that they are superior to human's and even they show some emotion through their cool exterior (Hardcore DS9 fan's would never admit this though!)

It seem's like that Enterprises Vulcan's are being bashed just for the sake of bashing - they are depicted more unconventionaly then usual but why is this a bad thing? Their species is just being fleshed out more and we are meeting more of them - each one an individual with a different personality.

Another thing to consider is that prehaps not all Vulcan's reach Kolinar (the time when all emotion is shed) - prehaps Vulcan's who do not achieve this are always slightly more emotional in their mannerisms.

As for the mind meld issues brought up by the show recently - could Saavik meld? Could Valeris? Why is it so hard to believe that it is only a minority that can meld? Before Enterprise we had only seen a handfull of Vulcan's perform this act, OK they happened to be the main characters but we still only saw a minority of the Vulcan's that we have seen actually meld.

I think that it will be a very interesting arc seeing how the Vulcan's slowly learn to accept something that goes against the very core of their Logic - at the time melds could be seen as very 'emotional' and intimate - two things that the Vulcan's reject. Why would they want to embrace this act with open arms?

I think that the main problem that B&B are facing is a backlash from fan's not because they have ruined continuity - but because they have ruined fan's preconception's, stereotypes and fan-fiction.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Nice post. Though some of us got it when we saw Amok Time.

 

[HortaVorta]

Posted by Timofnine:I think that the main problem that B&B are facing is a backlash from fan's not because they have ruined continuity - but because they have ruined fan's preconception's, stereotypes and fan-fiction.

I think this is what it really boils down to in most cases, apart from those who criticize the writing.

 

[Timofnine]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Posted by Worf999:
Nice post. Though some of us got it when we saw Amok Time.

Unfortunately I have not seen Amok Time for a few years now so I can't remember exactly how the Vulcan's were portrayed in this episode. I'll have to wait for the original series to be re-released on DVD region 2 before I do as TOS is rarely shown on TV in the UK anymore.

 

[Azrael]

STIII:TSFS also had Saavik specifically say that Vulcan males must endure Pon Farr though. That's not in keeping with T'Pol suffering it.

 

[Newt]

I am in total agreement with you Timofnine.

The Vulcans are potrayed perfectly, in enterprise.
Just look at these vulcans in these episodes & movies: Amok Time, Journy to Babel, All Our Yesterdays, TSFS, TFF, TUC, take me out to the holosuit, field of fire, meld and Im sure there are more examples of episodes. There is no difference between the vulcans on ENT then the rest of trek, besides some diffrences of their opinions and attitudes which we all know will change for the better over the years.

 

[Timofnine]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Posted by Azrael:
STIII:TSFS also had Saavik specifically say that Vulcan males must endure Pon Farr though. That's not in keeping with T'Pol suffering it.

Yes, but she did not say that Vulcan females do not go through some form of sexual cycle. For all we know, it is only the males who suffer intense burning sensations during this period and that is why Saavik said only males have to endure it. Prehaps female Vulcan's just begin to feel strong sexual urges or a desire to mate.

Vulcan Females going through a form of Pon Farr does not go against anything that is set canon - it just builds on an unexplored aspect of Vulcan biology.

 

[Raz]

Posted by Timofnine:
I just re-watched Star Trek III, and after seeing Sareks behaviour in this movie you can see that he is acting almost exactly like the Vulcan's as depicted in Enterprise.

He is logical - yet still traces of emotion manage to get through.

That is NOT how Vulcans in Enterprise act, though. I could accept it if they had subdued emotions. Plates of potatoes are bland and boring.

T'Pol for example is for me a fairly acceptable Vulcan. Her emotions are there - but they're very controlled and subtle which makes it all the more likeable to me. You have to be watching for it. My problem with T'Pol stems largely from stuff other than how "emotional" her character is.

But the other Vulcans on Enterprise are extremely warlike, aggressive, and have been known to raise their voice to a near-shout. I don't recall any of that happening in ST3. Even at his most "emotional", Sarek is still very much controlled and his emotions are all the more powerful for escaping in spite of being subdued and restrained.

Enterprise Vulcans are crying babies in comparison to Mark Lenard.

For the same reason, I have no problem with the slightly snotty, arrogant presentation of certain DS9 Vulcans. Why? Because it was still subdued. It was there, but it was like an iceberg, lurking under the surface with barely the tip visible. ENT Vulcans, in comparison, are like floating mines.

</fanboy>

 

[Event-Horizon]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

I agree with you, the Vulcans on Enterprise aren't all that different! In fact, I love them! And please keep in mind that we're not seeing a whole race on ENT either; just individuals!

I just love how T'Pol can show so much emotion just from looking at the camera... She's truly amazing! And yet, she's logical and doesn't *behave* like she's emotional! Gotta love her! (and this has nothing to do with her other *assets* )

 

[Timofnine]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Posted by Raz:

That is NOT how Vulcans in Enterprise act, though. I could accept it if they had subdued emotions. Plates of potatoes are bland and boring.

T'Pol for example is for me a fairly acceptable Vulcan. Her emotions are there - but they're very controlled and subtle which makes it all the more likeable to me. You have to be watching for it. My problem with T'Pol stems largely from stuff other than how "emotional" her character is.

But the other Vulcans on Enterprise are extremely warlike, aggressive, and have been known to raise their voice to a near-shout. I don't recall any of that happening in ST3. Even at his most "emotional", Sarek is still very much controlled and his emotions are all the more powerful for escaping in spite of being subdued and restrained.

Enterprise Vulcans are crying babies in comparison to Mark Lenard.

For the same reason, I have no problem with the slightly snotty, arrogant presentation of certain DS9 Vulcans. Why? Because it was still subdued. It was there, but it was like an iceberg, lurking under the surface with barely the tip visible. ENT Vulcans, in comparison, are like floating mines.

</fanboy>

"Why did you leave him on Genesis!!!!" Sarek shouts."He trusted you! And you denied him his future!"

Believe me, Sarek as good as shouts those lines.

As for Vulcan's being warlike* - why is that not logical for them at this moment in time? They are surrounded by hostile species such as Andorians, Tholians, Suliban, Klingons and Romulan's. Would you not be defensive with these threats?

*The Vulcan's are not hostile or warlike - they are defensive and weary.

 

[Raz]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Posted by Timofnine:
"Why did you leave him on Genesis!!!!" Sarek shouts."He trusted you! And you denied him his future!"

Believe me, Sarek as good as shouts those lines.

Whaaaatttt??? He DID NOT shout those lines. Not at all. I strongly disagree with any assertion that he in any way shouted those lines. Good god.

As for Vulcan's being warlike* - why is that not logical for them at this moment in time? They are surrounded by hostile species such as Andorians, Tholians, Suliban, Klingons and Romulan's. Would you not be defensive with these threats?

*The Vulcan's are not hostile or warlike - they are defensive and weary.

That's not the impression I got from Shadows Of P'Jem. Hell, the humans were more rational when faced with a hostage situation than the Vulcans!

 

[Robotrix_Zero]

As someone who is old enough to remember seeing "Amok Time" the first time it was broadcast on NBC (I was 7), let me say...

The problem that I've found with Vulcans we've seen at any length since B&B took over - from Tuvok to the present - is that actually they are too emotionless!

It's been explained over time and in many episodes that the Vulcans were once a passionate and violent race. They were about to destroy themselves until that philosopher (who showed up in the episode with Lincoln - I don't know titles that well) set them on this path to be in control of their emotions and apply logic to their lives. During TOS, it was put that to be totally free of emotion was an ideal but not necessarily a fact in their lives.

And while, ST:TMP seems to be a case of "we'll forget it ever happened if you will" between the fans and TPTB - when we first see Spock he's just gone through some extensive disipline in an attempt to purge all emotion. And yet when V'ger touches his mind and the Priestess does a mind-meld (because all these old traditions seem to include that practice ) she realizes he's failed. And yet, he's not cast out of Vulcan society for this - because repressing their emotions is still an everyday struggle for these people. That never gets through in the B & B years.

I saw some hope in the ENT episode with the Andorians where the Ambassador was chiding T'Pol for seeming to have been corrupted by her constant exposure to humans. I thought that maybe someone working on ENT had gotten the idea. But it was only a brief glimpse of hope.

Writers, actors and/or directors who don't really know about the old series have heard vaguely that Vulcan = Emotionless...and then they all end up being played as one-dimentional and (IMHO) boring.

And the ones who should be watching out for stuff like this (B&B) don't care.

 

[Guest]

Think of the depiction of Vulcan's in that quite forgetteble DS9 episode where a Vulcan crew is playing baseball against the stations crew. The Vulcan's believe that they are superior to human's and even they show some emotion through their cool exterior (Hardcore DS9 fan's would never admit this though!)

While I haven't really frequented the DS9 forum much here yet, I consider myself a Niner and absolutely agree with you on this one.

I LOVED seeing the Vulcans portrayed in this light... just went to show that stereo-types don't necessary apply to everyone!

<Edit> After typing this I've just gone to my DS9 video collection and hunted out the video with this episode, so I can enjoy it once again! Even though it is 1:10am here!

 

[Corran Horn]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Posted by Raz:

Whaaaatttt??? He DID NOT shout those lines. Not at all. I strongly disagree with any assertion that he in any way shouted those lines. Good god.

Shouting is over-stating it. There was definitely emotion there though.

 

[Raz]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

^ I'm not saying they don't have emotion. Jeez. Could you all read my post a little bit closer, please?

Bland potato plate Vulcans are boring! I agree entirely! There has to be layers, subtext, and suppressed (yet visible) emotion going on or you might as well use a muppet.

What I disagree with is that displays of Vulcan "emotion" in previous series - with one or two notable exceptions - were anything but downplayed, subdued, and repressed. Which is the whole idea. If you read carefully, I also say T'Pol's doing a good job and exemplifies that regard. Her emotions, such as they are, are tightly leashed and what we do see is subtle and in a way makes their visibility more poignant. Just like Sarek in ST:3.

Where I disagree is with the idea of Vulcans who DO noticably raise their voice very near to a shout, such as Soval. I think that in comparison, Sarek's lines were delivered with emotion, force and weight, while at the same time remaining understated. It seems like it escapes in spite of Sarek's best attempts. Soval just seems to lose it whenever he gets "emotional". There's no dignity in it.

 

[Corran Horn]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Posted by Raz:
^ I'm not saying they don't have emotion. Jeez. Could you all read my post a little bit closer, please?

My post wasn't to rebuke you. It was just commentary on my part.

 

[dudley]

How could someone be made to think that the men responsible for Voyager could possibly do Star Trek right when they're in the driver's seat?

 

[Guest]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Posted by Robotrix_Zero:
And while, ST:TMP seems to be a case of "we'll forget it ever happened if you will" between the fans and TPTB - when we first see Spock he's just gone through some extensive disipline in an attempt to purge all emotion. And yet when V'ger touches his mind and the Priestess does a mind-meld (because all these old traditions seem to include that practice ) she realizes he's failed. And yet, he's not cast out of Vulcan society for this - because repressing their emotions is still an everyday struggle for these people. That never gets through in the B & B years.

Well, a lot of their tradidions involve telepathy, but I'm still not convinved that what the Priestess did with Spock was actually a mind-meld. Mind-melds are a two way street, with both parties having their minds opened up to each other. What we saw in TMP appeared to be one-way, with the Priestess simply reading Spock's thoughts without revealing her own to him.

 

[Guest]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Posted by dudley:
How could someone be made to think that the men responsible for Voyager could possibly do Star Trek right when they're in the driver's seat?

By watching some of the better episodes of Enterprise.

 

[Robotrix_Zero]

Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

Posted by Undead Redshirt:

Posted by Robotrix_Zero:
And while, ST:TMP seems to be a case of "we'll forget it ever happened if you will" between the fans and TPTB - when we first see Spock he's just gone through some extensive disipline in an attempt to purge all emotion. And yet when V'ger touches his mind and the Priestess does a mind-meld (because all these old traditions seem to include that practice ) she realizes he's failed. And yet, he's not cast out of Vulcan society for this - because repressing their emotions is still an everyday struggle for these people. That never gets through in the B & B years.

Well, a lot of their tradidions involve telepathy, but I'm still not convinved that what the Priestess did with Spock was actually a mind-meld. Mind-melds are a two way street, with both parties having their minds opened up to each other. What we saw in TMP appeared to be one-way, with the Priestess simply reading Spock's thoughts without revealing her own to him.

So, when the Priestess tells Spock "Give me your thoughts" - that's not a mutual effort?

On the other hand, there was Spock melding with Valeris to get the info on the traitors in ST:VI - that didn't seem consentual at all. And Valeris never seemed weak-minded to me.

I'd mention the "Mirror, Mirror" Spock telling McCoy there in Sickbay that he was melding with him to find out what Kirk was up to...but someone would probably argue "Well, that was that reality..."