After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make sense.

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by Timofnine, Apr 9, 2003.

  1. Kelso

    Kelso Vice Admiral Admiral

    May 3, 2001
    On the destruct button until the last minute!
    Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

    Sarek had a good reason for his actions, and his more emotional demeanor.

    Priestess: "Your request is not logical!"

    Sarek: "My logic faulters where my son is concerned."

    Sarek was under duress at the time, as his son had just died and his spirit was thought to be lost. Soval and co. have not come up with such excuses for thier behaviour.

    I like that they are taking risks with the Vulcan's... I just wish they would be more careful about it. Thus far, it has been pretty hit and miss.
  2. AlexR

    AlexR Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 18, 1999
    North Brunswick, NJ, USA
    I don't know that they don't care, really.

    I think they're suffering fom the same malady as some of the others you just mentioned. They've never internalized the multi-layered nature of the Vulcan people, so when they try to go for the different facets--which they are, to their credit--they do it rather ham-handedly.

    What the folks on ENT do get is that Vulcans are a diverse people. Some of them are more aggressive than others, and some have vey different viewpoints than Spock, or Sarek, or Tuvok.

    As for "Trek III", Sarek may not have shouted the lines to Kirk, but he certainly spoke them with intensity and emotion, and he did, slightly, raise his voice. Soval is more voluble than Sarek, but he is indeed a different person, in a different situation, at a different time.

    I also don't see the Vulcans as warlike in "Enterprise". But I do think that, having adopted the role of local hegemon in that area of space, they are very quick to take action against forces which would disturb their perception of order. Is that all that different from the Vulcans of later in Trek history? I don't think so. Let us recall Spock's line in "Journey to Babel":

    "If he had a reason, my father is quite capable of killing, logically and efficiently."

    Again, that is consistent with the Vulcans of "Enterprise", who have--by nature of the circumstances in which they find themselves--a reason to act decisively, and sometimes aggressively.

    No, I don't really think the portrayals are significantly different at all. The peeks into mainline Vulcan culture are a bit different, but OTOH, they're also a lot deeper than has generally been done in the past, so there are bound to be some surprises as they bump up against our preconceptions.

  3. watermelony2k

    watermelony2k Vice Admiral Admiral

    Mar 14, 2003
    bllassspherrrmmyyy :p :p

    nice post
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Timofnine, can I use that last sentence in your original post in my sig? It sums up my thoughts exactly.
  5. where'sSaavik?

    where'sSaavik? Vice Admiral Admiral

    Jul 3, 2000
    Springfield, Just Another State, USA
    I think it is interesting to realize the diversity among "logical" Vulcans.

    To contrast this, one of the most interesting things about Worf's character was his sense of honor. His Klingon-ness was so much a part of him and his sense of honor was so noble. But when you saw other Klingons it was evident that he was more like an exception to the rule as so many of them behaved dishonorably (Dax said as much in Season 7 of DS9).

    Maybe Spock was like Worf. Growing up as half human he had to continually prove his Vulcan-ness, like Worf had to seek out his own identity, so he compensated by becoming even more logical than most Vulcans. And so, T'Pol is more like most Vulcans. Striving to repress all her emotions but unconsciously allowing them to influence her actions.

  6. Cooter Brown

    Cooter Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Oct 18, 2001
    You might clean up the overuse of the apostrophe first, though. However much I agree with Timofnine's post, it is illogical to use the apostrophe for plural nouns.
  7. Timofnine

    Timofnine Vice Admiral Moderator

    Feb 25, 2001
    The World
    Yes of course, I haven't quite got around to copyrighting it yet! :lol:

    LOL OK, so he didn't quite shout! But he did raise his voice and still showed alot of emotion through this.

    Because some people, myself included, do believe that they got somethings right in Voyager and the series is not as bad as alot of people on this board like to make out. B&B are learning from their past mistakes and triumph's on both Voyager and Enterprise, building on them to try and make future Star Trek better and more accepted by the hardcore aswell as the mainstream. You can not say that they are not trying! :cool:

    Here is a slightly off topic yet interesting point that I noticed regarding complaints with T'Pol's 'Vulcan' attire - We often hear people complaining that Vulcan's do not wear catsuits like T'Pol does, but last night I watched the DS9 episodes Vortex and Captive Pursuit?(The one where Nog and Jake eye up the Vulcan women) and in each episode the Vulcan women were shown in a skin hugging catsuit! :p
  8. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Mar 8, 2001
    Well, that's certainly one reason for it.

    Frankly, the "Enterprise" Vulcans make perfect sense to me after seeing "Amok Time", an episode packed full of arrogant, deceitful and emotional Vulcans that I wouldn't trust in a dark alley. :lol:
  9. Cronos6939

    Cronos6939 Captain Captain

    Sep 27, 2004
    Universe's comfiest couch
    Hear, hear!!

    All very good points! And Star trek has always been about bringing down the stereotype ;)

    More people need to read this and really think about how things are.
  10. gastrof

    gastrof Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    May 11, 2001
    New Vulcan
    The actor who played Tuvok based his characterisation on what he grew up with, watching Leonard on TOS. He was aiming to imiatate the only example he had.

    It was a good attempt.

    Star Trek lore has NEVER implied that all Vulcans go thru Kohlinar training.

    It's never been implied they all supress their emotions very well or are always "good people".

    Stonn and T'Pring are examples, as is the apparently customary expression "I beg forgiveness", something said when there IS an emotional slip.

    As for melding, as we've recently seen with T'Pol and Sato and during the Romulan remote control episode, the Vulcans have recently begun (Enterprise era) to admit that they ALL have telepathic abilities.

    They've been supressing them and denying them, but they ARE there.

    As can be seen in the TOS episode where a ship with an entirely Vulcan crew is destroyed, the effect of their deaths hit Spock a good distance away. Something like that can hardly be called "rare".

    Saavik was not Vulcan. She was apparently half Vulcan and half Romulan (who it seems have somehow LOST those abilities), and was always struggling to achieve a Vulcan-like persona after having had a very bad start in life.

    I've always felt the differences we see in her between ST2 and ST3 (aside from her FACE changing :p ) were due to her mentor and guide being DEAD, and her now feeling the need to supress her emotions and strive to be "the perfect Vulcan" all the more.

    Valeris? I see nothing to suggest she didn't have the same abilities, but as we know from the novels (quasi-canon), she was a child when her parents died, and she was raised by a non-Vulcan caretaker. She no doubt had never been "properly trained" (as T'Pol described herself), and thus was unable to resist Spock's meld in ST6.

    We do notice that both Vulcans shown in VOYAGER simply took their telepathic abilities in stride, as normal.

    I suspect those abilities are NOT rare or present in only part of the population. Even in Enterprise, the statement has been made that "Vulcans are telepathic" and when another Vulcan who was a "secret melder" offered to join with T'Pol in a meld, she didn't say anything to suggest such a thing had never, ever been heard of before.

    It seems it was known to be a possibility, but looked down on and supressed as part of a mishandling of Surak's teachings.

    No. Vulcans are a telepathic race. No doubt abilities vary due to personal makeup AND due to training (just as humans vary in natural abilities and how we use what we are born with and also can improve some things due to training).

    This is still fully supported, even with Enterprise being canon.

    I just think Manny and what he's done this year has set things back on course, due to B&B leaving it all a little murky and even giving some misimpressions that could be easilly used to think standing continuity has been violated.

    Again, Manny rescued us from that, and things are back on course now.

    We just need three more years of such corrections, is all, to make sure all is well. ;)
  11. T'Parm

    T'Parm Captain Captain

    Nov 9, 2001
    Aurora, CO, USA
    Boy this was an old thread. Um why did you dig it up?
  12. Mr Bungle

    Mr Bungle Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jan 31, 2004
    The Lowlands
    Re: After watching STIII:TSFS, Ent Vulcans make se

    A lot has happened to ENT-era Vulcan since this thread. ;)
  13. Mutai Sho-Rin

    Mutai Sho-Rin Crusty Old Bastard Moderator

    Jul 31, 2001
    Orange, CA USA
    For me, T'Pol and the rest of the ENT era Vulcans made perfect sense. See, I was untainted by baseless fannon fantasy that Vulcans were a monolithic society of emotionless automatons. God forbid that every human should behave exactly the same, especially if it were like Bill O'Reilly. :p
  14. BJensen

    BJensen Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 23, 2003
    ^ if it weren't for the fact that all Trek has the overwhelming tendency to portray 'aliens' as monolthic cultures, your POV would be more credible. If Bill O'Reilly was the model for an alien race on Trek, you'd be sure to get a planet full of them. :p :p
  15. Roshi

    Roshi Admiral Admiral

    Nov 22, 2004
    :eek: Whoa! Even threads can rise from the dead! :angel:
  16. Matt

    Matt Commodore Commodore

    Mar 16, 2004
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Jesus CHRIST is everything you hate caused by "TPTB"?!?!

    Tim Russ decided to emulate Nimoy but be more stern and drab at it.
  17. gastrof

    gastrof Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    May 11, 2001
    New Vulcan
    I feel like an idiot replying to this thread.

    Is he a troll? They do that sometimes. Bring up old threads just to create confusion and see who won't notice it's old.


    Like we needed stuff like this right now... :(
  18. vulcanshoolmarm

    vulcanshoolmarm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 29, 2005
    Fort Worth, Texas
    To some of us newbies on this board, this is a new thread.

    Something to think about regarding Enterprise's Vulcans. They have apparently strayed from Sarek's teaching and some of them aren't Vulcan, they're Romulan spies and trouble makers. In general I've been ok with Enterprise's Vulcans because they don't seem all that different from Spock and Sarek. Tuvok was the one that seemed wrong to me. Instead of having emotions that he controlled, it felt like he just didn't have any emotions. But then thinking back, most of the Vulcan characters I've liked have spent a lot of time with humans and that has to have changed them somewhat.
  19. flux_29

    flux_29 Commodore Commodore

    Mar 22, 2005
    i think the Kir'shara was the turning point because up untill it was discovered, Vulcans had to interprit Surak's teachings and as we all know everyone has their own opinions on topics only their opinions controled there society.
  20. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Jul 23, 2001
    The Wormhole
    It doesn't matter if you think you found evidence in other Treks which has Vulcans acting like they did in Enterprise. Enterprise Vulcans were different than Vulcans in other Treks. This is canon. The Vulcan arc earlier this year (you know "The Forge", "Awakening" and "Kir'shara") have proven so. In fact, "Kir'shara" even showed that Enterprise Vulcans were under Romulan influence. Case closed.