Admiral/Captain Kirk Question

[Praetor]

Roddenberry's quote was that, in Starfleet, "... rank is more like a job description".

Ah, thank you.

So then it does fit that Kirk would have a different title to command a starship than he would to serve as Chief of Starfleet Operations.

Doesn't really explain Commodore Decker commanding the Constellation in TOS though. Why shouldn't he be a Captain too, unless he was a fleet commander of some kind?

Indeed, it makes me wonder if Kirk could have retained his Admiral rank and still commanded the Enterprise if he were commanding, say, a task force?

Since the rank of Commodore is usually the "captain" in-charge of a fleet of ships (with each ship still having a captain), I'd assumed that commodores would usually have a ship of their own.

Not trying to nitpick, just spitballing here. It seemed rather clear in 'Doomsday Machine' that Decker commanded the Constellation. He even recorded the Captain's Log, which seems to preclude having a subordinate captain aboard that died with the rest of the crew. I also wonder how the rank of 'Fleet Captain' would come into play? I imagine a Fleet Captain might serve as Captain on the flagship of a Commodore. We also saw Commodore Wesley apparently commanding the Lexington in 'The Ultimate Computer' but it's possible he was only directly commanding for the wargames. It's also possible there was a Captain just off screen someplace.

If it was a task force like the one that met the Borg @ Wolf 359 or in the Terran system, then an admiral is usually the one in charge (ex. Admiral Hanson, and Admiral Hayes). At least in the TNG/DS9/VOY time period...

How, also, would you differentiate 'fleet' and 'task force'? I would think task force would be smaller and fleet (as in, Third Fleet) larger. Of course, it also depends whether there are still Commodores by TMP or TNG, or if they were renamed Rear Admiral. I don't recall for sure whether the TMP/TWoK rank scheme included Commodores?

 

[Christopher]

"Commodore" has meant different things at different times in history. At one point in the US Navy's history, it was just an honorary title extended to a captain in command of a fleet or task force, but at another time it was a formal, distinct rank, the rank that today is called rear admiral, I believe. I assume that the commodore rank in the 22nd- and 23rd-century Starfleet was an actual distinct rank, which was later dropped much as it was in the US Navy.

 

[Praetor]

"Commodore" has meant different things at different times in history. At one point in the US Navy's history, it was just an honorary title extended to a captain in command of a fleet or task force, but at another time it was a formal, distinct rank, the rank that today is called rear admiral, I believe. I assume that the commodore rank in the 22nd- and 23rd-century Starfleet was an actual distinct rank, which was later dropped much as it was in the US Navy.

Yeah, that's why I'm finding trying to define its 'real' role in Starfleet difficult. I'm thinking it would be convenient if it gave way to the Rear Admirals of the movies and TNG era. Bear with me a moment, I'm having a look at Memory Alpha's article on ranks and doing some rationalizing.

Maybe Commodore was only an alternate term for Fleet Captain? Perhaps the actual rank and title in TOS was 'Commodore: Fleet Captain.' IIRC, we never saw a specific insignia for 'Fleet Captain' on TOS, only the wide stripe for 'Commodore.' That would IMO fit nicely to put Pike on par with Wesley and the other named Commodores before his accident. It is tempting to say that a solid three stripe rank would be a Fleet Captain, but we never did see one, and perhaps the Commodore stripe pattern was the next step up and there was no three stripe?

In trying to reconcile what we saw in TMP, Kirk's Rear Admiral Stripes consisted of three solid narrow stripes, plus one extra solid narrow. Captain still consisted of two solids with a broken between. Perhaps then for the TMP scenario, Commodore/Fleet Captain became three solid narrow stripes?

Robert Fletcher's revised scheme for TWoK onward includes a pin for Commodore but not for Fleet Captain, jumping from Captain to Commodore, then to Rear Admiral. A rank pin for it appeared in one version of the 'Star Trek: Encyclopedia' which was, I believe, in turn based on one from the non-canon 'Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.' It consisted of the captain's pin with two additional 'leaves' on either side but was not in Fletcher's notes nor apparently ever made and on screen.

In the fleet captain article here it's mentioned that the non-canon 'Star Trek The Next Generation Officers Manual' suggested the TNG era Fleet Captain would be a five-pip, would somehow outrank 'Commodore' and would be in charge of fleet designs. I suggest we ignore it.

The next reference to TNG ranks in the MA article mentions that there is now a Rear Admiral Lower Half rank (the 'angle pin' with no pip) in the initial scheme adopted, which would seem to fit as a replacement for 'Commodore' in the real world's navies. The Rear Admiral Upper Half added a single pip. Then when the 'box' scheme for Admirals was adopted, flag officers seemed to gain a pip, and Rear Admiral (presumably upper half) was shown to be two pips. It might then logically follow that a one pip would be a Rear Admiral Lower Half as in the previous scheme, which would also seem to match the ENT rank pip system.

So, here are my assertions:

1. 'Commodore and Fleet Captain' were the same rank from at least TOS onward, just used interchangeably. The two solid narrow with wide between represented it.
2. Commodores could command starships personally, but generally commanded small fleets/task forces.
3. The term 'Commodore/Fleet Captain' was replaced by 'Rear Admiral, Lower Half' when the 'pip' system was adopted for TNG, similar to what happened in the real world. The term was sometimes still used anachronistically to refer to the job, as in Peter David's 'Before Dishonor' et al.

How's that work for everyone? Now I have a headache.

After wading through all these rank articles, I agree with Christopher that Nogura required Kirk to step down to 'Captain' in exchange for the way he took command of the Enteprise and was subsequently 'repromoted.' It at least makes sense dramatically.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

After wading through all these rank articles, I agree with Christopher that Nogura required Kirk to step down to 'Captain' in exchange for the way he took command of the Enteprise and was subsequently 'repromoted.' It at least makes sense dramatically.

That's always been the way I interpreted things as well.

As for "Fleet Captain" as a rank. I always assumed it was a lateral promotion from Captain, the way that First Sergeant in the US Army is a lateral promotion from Master SGT. Same grade, different rank. Much the same way that often in the old Royal Navy a Captain would be "promoted to Commodore" when in charge of more than one ship, without actually making them a Flag Officer/Admiral. A Fleet Captain is a senior Captain in charge of more than one vessel who is laterally promoted to Fleet Captain due to his position, but whom it was felt wasn't ready for the full flag rank of Commodore.

 

[T'Ressa Dax]

Works for me...

 

[Praetor]

As for "Fleet Captain" as a rank. I always assumed it was a lateral promotion from Captain, the way that First Sergeant in the US Army is a lateral promotion from Master SGT. Same grade, different rank. Much the same way that often in the old Royal Navy a Captain would be "promoted to Commodore" when in charge of more than one ship, without actually making them a Flag Officer/Admiral. A Fleet Captain is a senior Captain in charge of more than one vessel who is laterally promoted to Fleet Captain due to his position, but whom it was felt wasn't ready for the full flag rank of Commodore.

Well, that might actually work better than my attempted retcons.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

At one point in the US Navy's history, it was just an honorary title extended to a captain in command of a fleet or task force, but at another time it was a formal, distinct rank, the rank that today is called rear admiral, I believe.

In the 1980s, there was Commodore (one star) then Rear Admiral (two stars).

It is now called Rear Admiral, lower half (one star) and the two-star is called Rear Admiral, upper half.

 

[Trent Roman]

It is now called Rear Admiral, lower half (one star) and the two-star is called Rear Admiral, upper half.

So you're saying that the Rear Admirals have tops and bottoms?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

It is now called Rear Admiral, lower half (one star) and the two-star is called Rear Admiral, upper half.

So you're saying that the Rear Admirals have tops and bottoms?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Secrets between sailors, buddy.

 

[captcalhoun]

Commodore is a real rank in the Royal Navy. there are commdores serving today.

don't forget, Starfleet's not just the USN IN SPAAAAAAACE!

 

[Timo]

So the general gist now (in in-universe order) is that Christopher demoted Kirk from Rear Admiral to Captain, other writers then had Kirk perform the 2nd 5YM at Captain Rank, and eventually Diane Duane repromoted Kirk from Captain back to Rear Admiral after Empty Chair, so that he held that rank in the other Diane's Wagon Train to the Stars already?

For example Peter Morwood in Rules of Engagement says Kirk is an Admiral who is called Captain, but that book could fit after Empty Chair. Are there other conflicts?

Not trying to nitpick, just spitballing here. It seemed rather clear in 'Doomsday Machine' that Decker commanded the Constellation. He even recorded the Captain's Log, which seems to preclude having a subordinate captain aboard that died with the rest of the crew.

Agreed. OTOH, nothing really precludes Decker from commanding more than just the Constellation, the way Wesley commanded more than the Lexington - the rest of Decker's flock could have been elsewhere, and of course outside the scope of the episode because an important story point established the impossibility of communication with other Fleet assets. Perhaps 23rd century technology allows the same person to be in charge of the maneuvers of one ship and an entire flotilla; 24th century tech certainly does. Remember that although our TNG skipper heroes are often accused of micromanaging their ships' maneuvers, the ships do essentially fly themselves - all Picard needs to input is macros like "Attack Pattern Phi Lambda", and he can relegate that to Riker if he has a flotilla to command. Even Sisko aboard his cramped little "escort" can take the time off to monitor and direct general fleet maneuvers in an unholy furball of thousands of ships...

I also wonder how the rank of 'Fleet Captain' would come into play? I imagine a Fleet Captain might serve as Captain on the flagship of a Commodore.

I once again wish to promote an alternate view on Fleet Captain: that it does not exist, either as a rank or as a position.

We do not hear the expression "Fleet Captain" in "Whom Gods Destroy", contrary to popular wisdom. Rather, we twice hear our heroes remind Garth of his responsible position as a "starship fleet captain", that is, a captain in the starship fleet. The added responsibilities of being captain to a starship, rather than to some more mundane ship type, are similarly emphasized in e.g. "Bread and Circuses".

In "The Menagerie", we do hear Kirk say that Pike was promoted to "fleet captain". But the dialogue does not suggest that this rank would be distinct from Kirk's own Captain rank. Indeed, the rest of the related dialogue is intended to tell us that the careers of the two Enterprise skippers are more or less in synch (only Pike got everywhere first by virtue of being older), and that it thus is all the more dramatic that Pike has now become a cripple.

A promotion to "Fleet Captain" would then simply be a formal way of referring to the rank of Captain, as distinct from the position of captain - and Kirk would plausibly be extra formal in company with Commodore Mendez, a superior officer whom he is not particularly close with, who has just moments ago accused him of lying, and who is walking him to some ominous meeting with forewords of dark nature.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Commodore is a real rank in the Royal Navy. there are commdores serving today.

don't forget, Starfleet's not just the USN IN SPAAAAAAACE!

Of course it isn't, but the shows were written by Americans and broadcast in America, so it stands to reason that the disappearance of the commodore rank between TOS and the movies/TNG was a reflection of its disappearance in the US Navy, a result of the writers and producers not wanting to use an "outdated" rank in a futuristic setting.

 

[Praetor]

So the general gist now (in in-universe order) is that Christopher demoted Kirk from Rear Admiral to Captain, other writers then had Kirk perform the 2nd 5YM at Captain Rank, and eventually Diane Duane repromoted Kirk from Captain back to Rear Admiral after Empty Chair, so that he held that rank in the other Diane's Wagon Train to the Stars already?

For example Peter Morwood in Rules of Engagement says Kirk is an Admiral who is called Captain, but that book could fit after Empty Chair. Are there other conflicts?

None I can think of, but that doesn't mean there aren't.

Not trying to nitpick, just spitballing here. It seemed rather clear in 'Doomsday Machine' that Decker commanded the Constellation. He even recorded the Captain's Log, which seems to preclude having a subordinate captain aboard that died with the rest of the crew.

Agreed. OTOH, nothing really precludes Decker from commanding more than just the Constellation, the way Wesley commanded more than the Lexington - the rest of Decker's flock could have been elsewhere, and of course outside the scope of the episode because an important story point established the impossibility of communication with other Fleet assets. Perhaps 23rd century technology allows the same person to be in charge of the maneuvers of one ship and an entire flotilla; 24th century tech certainly does. Remember that although our TNG skipper heroes are often accused of micromanaging their ships' maneuvers, the ships do essentially fly themselves - all Picard needs to input is macros like "Attack Pattern Phi Lambda", and he can relegate that to Riker if he has a flotilla to command. Even Sisko aboard his cramped little "escort" can take the time off to monitor and direct general fleet maneuvers in an unholy furball of thousands of ships...

That works for me quite well.

I also wonder how the rank of 'Fleet Captain' would come into play? I imagine a Fleet Captain might serve as Captain on the flagship of a Commodore.

I once again wish to promote an alternate view on Fleet Captain: that it does not exist, either as a rank or as a position.

We do not hear the expression "Fleet Captain" in "Whom Gods Destroy", contrary to popular wisdom. Rather, we twice hear our heroes remind Garth of his responsible position as a "starship fleet captain", that is, a captain in the starship fleet. The added responsibilities of being captain to a starship, rather than to some more mundane ship type, are similarly emphasized in e.g. "Bread and Circuses".

In "The Menagerie", we do hear Kirk say that Pike was promoted to "fleet captain". But the dialogue does not suggest that this rank would be distinct from Kirk's own Captain rank. Indeed, the rest of the related dialogue is intended to tell us that the careers of the two Enterprise skippers are more or less in synch (only Pike got everywhere first by virtue of being older), and that it thus is all the more dramatic that Pike has now become a cripple.

A promotion to "Fleet Captain" would then simply be a formal way of referring to the rank of Captain, as distinct from the position of captain - and Kirk would plausibly be extra formal in company with Commodore Mendez, a superior officer whom he is not particularly close with, who has just moments ago accused him of lying, and who is walking him to some ominous meeting with forewords of dark nature.

Timo Saloniemi

That could work too...

 

[Christopher]

So the general gist now (in in-universe order) is that Christopher demoted Kirk from Rear Admiral to Captain...

I didn't. The screenwriter, director, and costumers for TMP did. My preference would've been to say that he was still an admiral who was addressed as "Captain" because he commanded a ship, but the evidence in TMP was difficult to reconcile with that. Aside from the rank stripes on his uniform, if Kirk had remained an admiral, there's no reason Decker couldn't have stayed captain of the ship while Kirk commanded the mission. (And I did include a handwave in ExM for why it didn't happen exactly that way -- see pp. 223-4.)

A promotion to "Fleet Captain" would then simply be a formal way of referring to the rank of Captain, as distinct from the position of captain - and Kirk would plausibly be extra formal in company with Commodore Mendez, a superior officer whom he is not particularly close with, who has just moments ago accused him of lying, and who is walking him to some ominous meeting with forewords of dark nature.

That's one heck of a stretch. Kirk says he met Pike when the latter was promoted to Fleet Captain. Presumably, Kirk would've had to meet Pike when he took over command of the Enterprise, so that would've had to be when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain -- promoted out of captaincy of the E, with Kirk taking over. Are you saying that Pike was only a commander for the 11-plus years that he commanded the ship? That just doesn't make sense.

 

[Praetor]

So maybe a 'lateral promotion' is the best compromise for fleet captain?

 

[Timo]

So the general gist now (in in-universe order) is that Christopher demoted Kirk from Rear Admiral to Captain...

I didn't. The screenwriter, director, and costumers for TMP did.

Yup - sorry about trying to be flippant. My intention was to indicate that in the novelverse, you were the one to add this contribution in clear writing, while the onscreen material could be interpreted in many ways and indeed some earlier novels reflect this confusion. Previously, some might have believed that Kirk reverted back to Rear Admiral at the end of the first movie, and never engaged in a second mission.

Aside from the rank stripes on his uniform, if Kirk had remained an admiral, there's no reason Decker couldn't have stayed captain of the ship while Kirk commanded the mission. (And I did include a handwave in ExM for why it didn't happen exactly that way -- see pp. 223-4.)

It's too bad that the situation required such a handwave, making the clumsiness of the original writers so evident... But I laud the solution.

That's one heck of a stretch. Kirk says he met Pike when the latter was promoted to Fleet Captain. Presumably, Kirk would've had to meet Pike when he took over command of the Enterprise, so that would've had to be when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain -- promoted out of captaincy of the E, with Kirk taking over. Are you saying that Pike was only a commander for the 11-plus years that he commanded the ship? That just doesn't make sense.

But Kirk never says he only met Pike once, or that he last met Pike when he was promoted. Mendez asks if the two have met, and Kirk affirms that they did in the promotion ceremony. Logically, Kirk would be speaking of their first meeting, not their last. In that meeting, Kirk probably was an impressionable young cadet rather than a recently appointed starship captain...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

So the general gist now (in in-universe order) is that Christopher demoted Kirk from Rear Admiral to Captain...

I didn't. The screenwriter, director, and costumers for TMP did.

Yup - sorry about trying to be flippant. My intention was to indicate that in the novelverse, you were the one to add this contribution in clear writing, while the onscreen material could be interpreted in many ways and indeed some earlier novels reflect this confusion. Previously, some might have believed that Kirk reverted back to Rear Admiral at the end of the first movie, and never engaged in a second mission.

Aside from the rank stripes on his uniform, if Kirk had remained an admiral, there's no reason Decker couldn't have stayed captain of the ship while Kirk commanded the mission. (And I did include a handwave in ExM for why it didn't happen exactly that way -- see pp. 223-4.)

It's too bad that the situation required such a handwave, making the clumsiness of the original writers so evident... But I laud the solution.

That's one heck of a stretch. Kirk says he met Pike when the latter was promoted to Fleet Captain. Presumably, Kirk would've had to meet Pike when he took over command of the Enterprise, so that would've had to be when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain -- promoted out of captaincy of the E, with Kirk taking over. Are you saying that Pike was only a commander for the 11-plus years that he commanded the ship? That just doesn't make sense.

But Kirk never says he only met Pike once, or that he last met Pike when he was promoted. Mendez asks if the two have met, and Kirk affirms that they did in the promotion ceremony. Logically, Kirk would be speaking of their first meeting, not their last. In that meeting, Kirk probably was an impressionable young cadet rather than a recently appointed starship captain...

Timo Saloniemi

Or he could have been speaking of their only meeting.

 

[Timo]

In theory, yes. However, there are two reasons to prefer the other alternative. One is for those who like to have flexibility in the timeline, perhaps with this "Fleet Captain doesn't exist" theory in mind.

Yet the other is more objective. If Kirk and Pike had only met once, would Jim really choose to address his colleague as "Chris" on their second meeting?

Kirk considered Commodore Decker "Matt", Commodore Wesley "Bob" and Captain Tracey "Ron", but he wasn't on first-name basis with every peer or superior officer he met...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Stevil2001]

I can easily see Kirk calling Pike a respectful "Fleet Captain" at the promotion ceremony, and Pike saying something like, "You're the captain of the Enterprise now; call me Chris."

 

[ClayinCA]

I really hate to stir up trouble, but Marshak & Culbreath refer to Kirk as "Admiral, Acting Captain Kirk" in one of their post-TMP novels (I think it's The Prometheus Design). Not like it matters, I suppose...