Admiral/Captain Kirk Question

[Paris]

Does anyone know if there has been a story detailing why Kirk was a captain during the second FYM instead of an admiral? We know that an admiral can command a ship, so why was Kirk demoted?...and when was he made an Admiral again for that matter? Why would he accept promotion a second time?

 

[Jbarney]

I can't name all of them, but there are a lot of books which imply Kirk is going to be promoted at the end of the FYM. It has been years since I read them, but Battlestations and Dreadnought give some information about this. Don't want to feed you wrong information though.

Also, the Lost Years series of books provides some nice details about Kirk being an admiral and some of the first situations he had to deal with once he'd been promoted.

As far as him being a captain for the 2nd FYM, I think it was more situational than anything else. Decker had been pegged to command the Enterprise. When he was killed, you almost get the impression that Kirk pulled out the chair for himself and that was that. While he was commanding the ship, I believe he still had the rank of an admiral.

When the conjectured 2nd FYM ends in 2278 he then became involved with the Belle Terre mission (Timeliners moved Belle Terre out of the 2nd FYM, not everyone may agree with this though). I don't think he lost the rank of admiral at any point until he was demoted at the end of Star Trek IV.

 

[Paris]

In Christopher's Ex Machina, which is in the second FYM, he is referred to as a captain as well as in Diane Duane's Spock's World , which is placed in either 2272 or 2274 depending on when TMP takes place. I think that if he was an admiral people would have referred to him as such. Even if some people we're following the tradition of calling the commander of a ship by the moniker "captain" no matter the rank, at least Spock and McCoy would have called him "admiral".

 

[Praetor]

It's important to remember that 'Captain' is a title as well as a rank. Anyone who commands a ship is properly addressed as 'Captain,' whatever their rank is. A Star Trek example is Lt. Commander Dax, who was referred to as 'Captain' by Nog while commanding the Defiant in a certain episode of DS9.

IMO, the 'grade-reduction' business in TMP was rather ridiculous. I'd prefer to believe that Kirk retained his Admiral's rank and assuming the position of Captain was the step-down, with no actual 'demotion' involved. I don't buy that Spock and Bones in particular would call him 'Admiral' when he was serving as their 'Captain.'

 

[Christopher]

I would've preferred to go with the "Captain as title, admiral as rank" theory, except that Kirk was wearing captain's stripes for most of TMP. I rationalize the rank reduction as the tradeoff Nogura demanded in exchange for granting Kirk's request to take back the ship.

 

[Praetor]

But if rank is just a title as Roddenberry always insisted, maybe he wears the rank to fit the job he's performing, rather than his 'actual' rank?

Come to think of it, if it's just a job title maybe it doesn't matter what his 'actual' rank is.

I just don't like him yoyoing back and forth between Captain and Admiral. I'd rather he technically stayed Admiral even while serving as Captain and wearing a Captain's stripes, so if he wanted to pull rank on someone he could.

 

[Therin of Andor]

But if rank is just a title as Roddenberry always insisted, maybe he wears the rank to fit the job he's performing, rather than his 'actual' rank?

Roddenberry's quote was that, in Starfleet, "... rank is more like a job description".

 

[Paris]

Maybe Christopher (or someone else I guess)can write another story at some point, about the post-TMP / pre-TWOK 5YM, and maybe in that story Kirk's rank discrepancy can be addressed in some manner. Until then, I guess it's unanswerable as no story seems to exist that deals with this. Personally, I really liked Ex Machina, and I would definetly buy a sequel of some type

 

[Christopher]

^Didn't I address it in Ex Machina already? I think that what I said above, about demotion being the price Nogura exacted in exchange for getting the ship back, was stated somewhere in that novel.

 

[Paris]

^Didn't I address it in Ex Machina already? I think that what I said above, about demotion being the price Nogura exacted in exchange for getting the ship back, was stated somewhere in that novel.

Did you? I thought when you suggested the demotion as a price, it was just an idea that you had afterward, and it wasn't actually in the book. I just read the book a few weeks ago, and if it was in there, I must have missed it. How embarrassing. What page was it on? I should go back and re-read that passage...

 

[Christopher]

^I don't remember for sure if it was in the book or not. I think it was at least implied somewhere.

 

[Paris]

^I don't remember for sure if it was in the book or not. I think it was at least implied somewhere.

ahhhhhh...I see. Does anyone else know if Christopher included this explantation in Ex Machina? If so, which page? Thanks all...

 

[William Leisner]

Maybe Christopher (or someone else I guess)can write another story at some point, about the post-TMP / pre-TWOK 5YM, and maybe in that story Kirk's rank discrepancy can be addressed in some manner. Until then, I guess it's unanswerable as no story seems to exist that deals with this. Personally, I really liked Ex Machina, and I would definetly buy a sequel of some type

"Unanswerable"? I thought Christopher just answered it for you. And in far less than 80,000 words, saving you $7.99 in the process.

 

[Paris]

Maybe Christopher (or someone else I guess)can write another story at some point, about the post-TMP / pre-TWOK 5YM, and maybe in that story Kirk's rank discrepancy can be addressed in some manner. Until then, I guess it's unanswerable as no story seems to exist that deals with this. Personally, I really liked Ex Machina, and I would definetly buy a sequel of some type

"Unanswerable"? I thought Christopher just answered it for you. And in far less than 80,000 words, saving you $7.99 in the process.

I guess "I don't remember" is an answer. You've proven me wrong Mr. Leisner! Please go easy with the lashings... (oh,...and up here in Canada MMPB's cost $10). Did you have anything constructive to add? Maybe you know which page Christopher mentions the demotion on?

 

[Praetor]

But if rank is just a title as Roddenberry always insisted, maybe he wears the rank to fit the job he's performing, rather than his 'actual' rank?

Roddenberry's quote was that, in Starfleet, "... rank is more like a job description".

Ah, thank you.

So then it does fit that Kirk would have a different title to command a starship than he would to serve as Chief of Starfleet Operations.

Doesn't really explain Commodore Decker commanding the Constellation in TOS though. Why shouldn't he be a Captain too, unless he was a fleet commander of some kind?

Indeed, it makes me wonder if Kirk could have retained his Admiral rank and still commanded the Enterprise if he were commanding, say, a task force?

 

[Paris]

But if rank is just a title as Roddenberry always insisted, maybe he wears the rank to fit the job he's performing, rather than his 'actual' rank?

Roddenberry's quote was that, in Starfleet, "... rank is more like a job description".

Ah, thank you.

So then it does fit that Kirk would have a different title to command a starship than he would to serve as Chief of Starfleet Operations.

Doesn't really explain Commodore Decker commanding the Constellation in TOS though. Why shouldn't he be a Captain too, unless he was a fleet commander of some kind?

Indeed, it makes me wonder if Kirk could have retained his Admiral rank and still commanded the Enterprise if he were commanding, say, a task force?

Since the rank of Commodore is usually the "captain" in-charge of a fleet of ships (with each ship still having a captain), I'd assumed that commodores would usually have a ship of their own. If it was a task force like the one that met the Borg @ Wolf 359 or in the Terran system, then an admiral is usually the one in charge (ex. Admiral Hanson, and Admiral Hayes). At least in the TNG/DS9/VOY time period...

 

[William Leisner]

You've proven me wrong Mr. Leisner! Please go easy with the lashings...

You thought that was a lashing? Gee, and I had even removed all the f-bombs before hitting "submit reply."

 

[Paris]

You've proven me wrong Mr. Leisner! Please go easy with the lashings...

You thought that was a lashing? Gee, and I had even removed all the f-bombs before hitting "submit reply."

So that's a "no" on the constructive comments i'm guessing ??

 

[Christopher]

Anyway... I just searched the Ex Machina manuscript for all occurrences of "Nogura," and I couldn't find any mention of Kirk's demotion being the tradeoff for getting the ship back. I guess I came up with that idea post-ExM.

 

[Paris]

^Maybe someday you can put it into practice