Absolute Worst Voyager Episode Ever?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Zameaze, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. Damian

    Damian Commodore Commodore

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    If you haven't read them you might like the "Dark Matters" novel trilogy. They give some proper closer to Kes' character and she is the Kes we all know and love (she's progressed in her evolution) and it also gives some explanation to "Fury" and what happened.
     
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  2. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've read those books and they do present an acceptable solution when it comes to explaining the pathetic creature which showed up in the s**t episode while also restoring Kes back to normal.

    My only complaint is that it don't solve the main problem which is restoring Kes back to what she was in seasons 1-3 and making her a member of the Voyager crew again.

    Stiil quite good reading.
     
  3. Damian

    Damian Commodore Commodore

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    Part of that is probably because at the end of any novel they have to put everything back in it's place from a canon perspective. We know that Kes never returned to Voyager after 'Fury' so Christie Golden couldn't return her. At least in the novel Kes had moved onto another plane of existence, her next step, and it was probably one of those things that going back to her old life was just not feasible anymore. She had grown beyond the usual corporeal existence of Voyager's crew. What the trilogy of novels did though is reaffirm her love and affection for her former crewmates. While she couldn't return to them like she was, she still wanted to help them. In a way it was sort of like how the Enterprise novels 'fixed' the problems with TATV. This trilogy fixes some of the problems with "Fury", at least as best they can since they can't outright contradict canon.

    But judging from the novels it's probably fair to say Christie Golden was not a fan of "Fury" either. She wrote that Kes was horrified by her alternate personality's actions. To me it seemed somewhat of a rebuke of the episode.
     
  4. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I actually had an exchange of views with Christie Golden via e-mails for a while around the time the "Dark Matters" trilogy was publiced and she did share my opinion that Kes had been mistreated by those in charge. She also mentioned that she had to re-write parts of the "Dark Matters" books, at least the last one due to the s**t episode in season 6 which destroyed Kes and messed up the story Golden had written so far. She didn't like the s**t episde and couldn't understand why the brought Kes back only to destroy her.

    Personally I found Golden a very sympathetic person and I also enjoyed her previous books "The Murdered Sun" and "Marooned".

    I can understand that Golden couldn't contradict "canon" then by simply returning her to Voyager but I do think it would be possible to restore kes back to normal and re-introduce her to Voyager in upcoming books.

    Without being big-headed and without putting down other more skilled writers, that's exactly what I did in my Kes come-back story "Coming Home" where Kes is restored back to normal and at least temporarily re-instated as a member of the Voyager crew (you see, I wouldn't contradict "canon" either by bringing her back permanently in season 7 when she wasn't in season 7 in the TV series.

    But I had no qualms about wiping out other things I didn't like. It took me five minutes to get rid of that nine-year lifespan stupidity and energy-being mumbo-jumbo and one minute to erase the damage made to the character in the s**t episode in season 6.

    All that was necessary was a bit of will and imagination. Maybe some writing skills too! :techman:
     
  5. Damian

    Damian Commodore Commodore

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    I also remember in one of Kirsten Beyer's relaunch novels, The Eternal Tide, Kes helped in bringing back Captain Janeway. So we know she's still out there somewhere. The 9 year lifespan probably no longer applies since she really isn't a corporeal life form anymore. It's always possible that she can make a return in a future Voyager novel (if there are any more after "To Lose the Earth" is eventually released--I have a feeling future novels will revolve around the original series, Discovery and the nu-TNG show once it comes out and DS9, Voyager and Enterprise novels may cease to be produced).
     
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  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That would be typical for this horrible, boring decade if the Voyager books and DS9 books would cease to be produced. I guess that there isn't as much doom, gloom and boredom in them to attract the "SF-fans" of today. :mad:

    I only hope that they will make all the old TNG, DS9 and Voyager books available so that everyone interested in good SF-books will be able to read those masterpieces which were created by excellent authors in times much better than the orgy of boredom we live in now.

    If I only knew how to get more time for writing. :shrug:

    That would slove a lot of problems, at least for me and maybe for some Kes fans as well.
     
  7. Terok Nor

    Terok Nor Commodore Commodore

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    I don't think Kes beat the 9 years lifespan thing if her aged appearance in Fury is anything to go by. Sure she can make herself look younger but it's just a facade. Some Ocampa lived to be 15 years old with Suspiria's help but I think Kes left it too late for that.

    I think Old Kes should be cut some slack. She was clearly confused due to senility and whatever messed up existence she'd had since she left Voyager. In the end she didn't actually go through with her plan to be fair.
     
  8. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The pathetic witch we saw in the s**t episode had no resemblance at all to Kes, neither in looks nor in manners. The real Kes would never harm her friends at the ship.
    Therefore it must have been som evil being from another universe. Or maybe Berman's sister? :rommie:

    I don't think that energy beings can age either.
     
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  9. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They faced death, which I think is something. Death was one of Voyager's recurrent themes, in an episode or two each year. The twist (pun surely intended) was this death really was just a doorway but not the end. However much you insist that it didn't "really" happen, you can't correctly say it didn't count. Nobody knew that the bizarre twisting would be harmless. But I agree beating death, winning, is more fun than merely finding out what people are like. But for what it's worth, as I recall, it's the episode that established Janeway liked Harry, something the show was pretty consistent about.

    In a character-driven episode, the point is what we learn about the characters. And this is just as true in a twisted scenario, or an alternate world, or a holodeck fantasy as it is in an episode that's about something actually happening, about something that matters. It's like the wedding in Course: Oblivion or Chakotay schooling Seven in Human Error. Some people seem to use "character-driven" to mean a satisfying scenario for a vicarious wish fulfillment character but that seems overly restrictive to me.

    I don't think it's an accident that almost all of the Voyager death-themed episodes have gotten mixed receptions.
     
  10. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think for worst episode, freaking "Spirit Folk" by quite a lot. Sure there were some episodes that had big missed opportunities, stupidity, other big annoyances but "Spirit Folk" was pretty much nothing but idiot-plotting which gradually got worse/unbelievably bad and more so and more so and more so.

    It's probably even worse for me personally as I overall liked its predecessor "Fair Haven".
     
  11. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Commodore Commodore

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    "Threshold" at least tries to experiment, though it's undeniable they made some weird choices or, if nothing else, took an idea way too far into Weirdsville -- DNA de-evolution is one thing, but could it have been handled better?

    Yes, but the basic ideas weren't entirely terrible.

    No, my vote must go to "Flashback", despite its accomplishments in bringing back the Excelsior crew actors. Not only is it trying to pay homage to the TOS era, it's also doing something big in grafting on VOY characters into it, while in the middle of a mission at the time, and attempting to stay within canon. It honestly should have been epic. But it ended up being little more than a whimper, complete with Janeway bashing the TOS era while not realizing the irony of her own situation. IMHO, that's worse than finding a novel way to get crewmembers to unwittingly and unwantingly breed with each other, and I accept that the warped DNA (no pun intended) turned them into salamanders instead of something more directly prehistorical human.
     
  12. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^Most of the crossovers involve bashing the original series era in the sense of not being reverential or particularly deferential toward it.
     
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  13. Delta Vega

    Delta Vega Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    From memory, I haven't given time to Voyager for a while, I'd say "Barge of the Dead"
    Utter dross.
     
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  14. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    I thought "Endgame" was the worst because it lacked any depth for the characters; it was everything TNG "All Good Things..." wasn't. It's quite fitting though since the greatest show hog, Janeway, had to compete with equal screen time with... herself. I thought it was a grinding two hours where the big reveal was spoiled in the first few seconds of the finale, Voyager arriving in San Francisco. The plot had zero meaning for me because Seven of Nine was not my favorite character and I really didn't have much of an investment in her well being. She would've been best served to pull a Will Decker and rejoin the Borg and somehow become the new Queen in some ultimate sacrifice to get the crew home.

    Like the entire series run, the show had so much potential to be one of the best Trek series ever produced but episode by episode I felt fell short. I remember TNG "Sarek" the subject character was spreading his emotions onto the crew which was quite compelling, and I would've expected some resonance from what was clearly happening to Tuvok and his illness spreading to the senior staff which could've build an obstacle for the crew in getting home. A finale should give the fans of the series their final moments for the characters and give the characters their final bow.... their last harrah, but this finale is nothing but, and only focuses on a pretty dumb plot.

    A lot of members on this forum simply cares about the logo and catchphrases, and the sfx, what made Star Trek great was about the crew, and how much they enjoy being around each other and the stories should always reflect that. It's the futuristic family and it's necessary for a TV series of this nature to have that final bow. Like DS9's plot hole finale, I felt empty with this one, and I thought it was too long. This boring episode could've been wrapped up in 52 minutes; there's just nothing there to warrant more time.
     
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  15. Sybok Was Wrong

    Sybok Was Wrong Commander Red Shirt

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    I think you make several great points!

    1) The 7 of 9 plot you suggest is really good! That's a missed opportunity.

    2) The Tuvok subplot is another good Idea. They could have used that plot device to reaffirm the strength of each character and what they mean to each other.

    3) The only series I got the feeling that the crews were "family" and enjoyed being around each other was TOS and VOY. On VOY it seemed Janeway & Chakotay enjoyed getting together for meals as "friends", Paris and Kim were clearly friends with their Captain Proton adventures, Neelix was friendly to everyone, etc. These relationships made me root for Voyager. I didn't sense friendships on ENT; DS9 it felt forced with O'Brien and Bashir because of the writers.

    VOY deserved a better finale, but like so much television, the writers and producers are burned out at the end and it shows, in weird ideas like Chakotay & 7 hooking up, etc. TNG was very lucky in that regard with "All Good Things", because otherwise their Season 7 reeked of burn-out.
     
  16. chris of nine

    chris of nine Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    My issue with Barge is not particularly the Klingon Mythology. I do like the concept. But I can’t enjoy it. I like them on their ships. I love them in our Mess Halls. I don’t like Warrior Religion.

    But....another fantasy dream scene where the VOY crew turns against her, and I think, What?

    How many times have the writers used this device on other cast members already? Is that all you got?

    The only good thing was B’elanna flailing that Batleth at each one.
     
  17. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    I don't think they need to be. It's perfectly possible to pay homage to the original series and criticise some aspects of it at the same time. In case of Voyager , it doesn't even need to be seen as criticism, but as attitudes / work ethics that shifted a bit between the 23rd and 24th century, and the 24th century reflection on that. Which is perfectly plausible, since the 23rd century was much more of a "wild west" time, in which you wouldn't always have the luxury to debate the finer points of logic or ethics (with "Klingons behind every gas cloud"), and it would reflect in the "starfleet culture". Not leaving your comrades behind being more important than having a perfectly accurate log.

    Frankly, the only depiction I really take issue with is TNG's of Scotty, making him look like someone who consciously built his own reputation as a miracle worker by cheating just a
    little bit, and making him a whining old man because he doesn't have anything to do.

    Oh, and I didn't like Kirk dying a stupid death under a bridge, like 3 minutes after Picard convinced him to "make a difference".
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  18. LJones41

    LJones41 Commodore Commodore

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    For me, Season 3's "Favorite Son" is the worst VOY episode. It's up there with "Spock's Brain". "The Thaw" is a close second.
     
  19. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    I get that all of the time in this forum; and many have started threads from my suggestions but those same people never click a like or give credit where their thread came from.

    TOS had Kirk, Spock, & McCoy and the trinity was special and their friendship was the all time best IMO. I would like to see TNG and it's spin-offs within their own universes and I can only contrast between it's own. I thought the producers or better yet the casting team made a great effort to cast actors who would produce chemistry very quickly. I thought the relationships between the cast of ST: Enterprise was the best of TNG era; they seemed to get it by episode 1 IMO, and I'm not a fan of that series at all.
     
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  20. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You hit the nail on the head when you write that:
    "Endgame" was the worst because it lacked any depth for the characters; it was everything TNG "All Good Things..." wasn't."
    I remember when I watched "All Good Things". I was sad that my favorite series was over but at least it did end in a good mood, sort of "they are still out there and there might be more books and movies".

    For reasons I already mentioned I definitely did stop watching Voyager after a certain episode in season 6 and I decided to watch "Endgame" one minute before the airing of it started just because of som old affection for the series. I wanted to see them come home to Earth.

    When the episode ended, I actually regretted that I'd bothered to switch on the TV in the first place. "Endgame" was just bad and nothing more. A confusing story, the Chakotay-Seven thing and not even a decent homecoming for the crew.

    Last year I finally had the opportunity to watch the last three seasons of DS9 and even if "What You Leave Behind" was a bit sad and depressive, it wasn't as horrible as "Endgame" was.

    However, there are two Voyager episodes which are much worse than "Endgame". Those are "The Gift" and the s**t episode in season 6.
     
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