Abrams: Star Trek Into Darkness Problems
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Who is the better actor?
Like hell its not. You're complaining that Character X is not played by someone of the correct ethnicity although he never has been.
You're essentially complaining because he wasn't the right color.
I'm not sure I'd go quite that far.
Montalbán was one of several actors who were during that period often brought in to play a vaguely ethnic or nonspecifically exotic role which still called for chops of the kind associated with stage acting. They knew he could be depended on to deliver the goods. But does casting a Mexico-born child of Spanish immigrants (one who had already played many such roles over the span of the preceding two and a half decades—some far more dramatically demanding than the part of Khan) really make it progressive casting? I don't think it was quite so daring or groundbreaking as all that.
On an unrelated note:
Pics posted as embedded images should be hosted on web space or an image-hosting account registered to you. I know that racebending.com has lots of material which supports contentions of whitewashing, but when you use the bandwidth of someone else's site to post pics here, it's considered poor form and is not in accordance with TrekBBS' image-posting policy. Thus, I've converted these to links
Montalban was also already reasonably famous as a leading charming beefcake by the 60's. Casting him as another witty, charming (if evil) lover that romances a Caucasian woman was expected when he showed up.
Hell, in a Bonanza ep a few years earlier he'd even been:
- brown faced
- the noble, but violent 'savage' that's found and nursed back to health by the heroes
-in a relationship with Madlyn Rhue
- ended up reigning all unholy hell on those he held responsible for the death of Madlyn Rhue.
Funny enough, I watched 'Sayonara' yesterday. It's a pretty good movie, but Montalban is horrifying in it. Not only is the yellow-face now offensive, the effect is fucking creepy.
Hell, in a Bonanza ep a few years earlier he'd even been:
- brown faced
- the noble, but violent 'savage' that's found and nursed back to health by the heroes
-in a relationship with Madlyn Rhue
- ended up reigning all unholy hell on those he held responsible for the death of Madlyn Rhue.
Funny enough, I watched 'Sayonara' yesterday. It's a pretty good movie, but Montalban is horrifying in it. Not only is the yellow-face now offensive, the effect is fucking creepy.
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Yes, it used to be that darker actors were used interchangably to play all sorts of ethnicities. It still happens to some extent. One can understand complaints, but then at the other extreme you get complaints about Koreans playing Japanese, which makes no more sense than complaining about Brits playing Germans (or vice versa).
There are also relatively recent instances of white actors playing "coloured". Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's is the most infamous example, but on the other hand Laurence Olivier playing Othello is something that couldn't happen now, even though Shakespeare would have expected the role to be played by a white man in dark makeup. I'm not advocating blackface, I'm just saying it's a shame actors are limited by race (and sex). Possibly that will change to some extent as CG actor replacement becomes more common?
There are also relatively recent instances of white actors playing "coloured". Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's is the most infamous example, but on the other hand Laurence Olivier playing Othello is something that couldn't happen now, even though Shakespeare would have expected the role to be played by a white man in dark makeup. I'm not advocating blackface, I'm just saying it's a shame actors are limited by race (and sex). Possibly that will change to some extent as CG actor replacement becomes more common?
I was complaining about replacing a minority character played by a minority actor by yet another white dude. This is offensive. Hollywood has a long history of eroding minority roles, it's called whitewashing and it is racist. Star Trek should be better than this.
And yes, using darker actors interchangeably to represent minorities is problematic in itself, but still way better than whitewashing though. However, in 21st century I'd have expected Khan to be played by an South Asian actor.
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I haven't seen anyone give a shit about this stuff.
Statements like this tend to be what draws contention. Mainly because it comes off as someone stating it like it's a fact, as opposed to a personal opinion.
Allow me to demonstrate: What's your gut instinct when I write this?
I don't know why people get so upset about everyone not liking TNG. Even the writers fessed up to it being creatively stifled a lot of the time, and the actors thought their characters were boring. Its just a bad series.
Everyone has said anyone is free to not like the movie - just don't make up bullshit reasons not to like it while giving the rest of the franchise a pass.
There isn't any sin that STID committed that wasn't repeatedly committed by every other movie.
People are free to not like the movie -- heck, JJ Abrams himself is free not to like the movie -- but that doesn't automatically mean that Star Trek Into Darkness is intrinsically bad and without any merit whatsoever to each individual viewer. Many of us enjoyed it (personally, I don't mind admitting I even liked it better overall than I did the 2009 movie).
People making statements like "it wasn't a very good film", or indeed going to the other extreme and saying "It was the BEST film EVAH!!!!!", as if those are underlined and irrefutable facts, is where it all starts to get sticky. Because such viewpoints immediately presume that there's a "right" and a "wrong" opinion on the matter; when, in actual fact, the spectrum of opinion is by it's very nature a broad and very colorful one.
I respect people's right to like AND not like the movie. Just so long as each side can articulate in a polite manner exactly why they feel that way, rather than simply saying "I'm right and you're wrong".
People making statements like "it wasn't a very good film", or indeed going to the other extreme and saying "It was the BEST film EVAH!!!!!", as if those are underlined and irrefutable facts, is where it all starts to get sticky. Because such viewpoints immediately presume that there's a "right" and a "wrong" opinion on the matter; when, in actual fact, the spectrum of opinion is by it's very nature a broad and very colorful one.
I respect people's right to like AND not like the movie. Just so long as each side can articulate in a polite manner exactly why they feel that way, rather than simply saying "I'm right and you're wrong".
The problem is that once people try to articulate their reasons for not liking the film, they're accused of 'making up reasons for not liking it' (apparently even JJ himself is making up these reasons...)
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Nah. If you say "I didn't like the film, because X, Y and Z"—X, Y and Z all being plausible reasons why someone might not like a film—then I think you'll find that most people (here, at least) are going to be willing to take you at your word. They may not agree with you, but that's a different thing.
It's when one makes pronouncements along the lines of "people get[ing] so indignant about not everyone liking this film" (hyperbole) or "It just wasn't a very good film" (opinion, presented as fact) that one may find one's statements being questioned.
Just have to correct something here. Kirk didn't wake up after dying 'after a couple minutes.' Dr. McCoy said "you were out cold for two weeks." That is all.
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For me and a friend of mine we both agree that we didn't like Star Trek Into Darkness! Abrams made a big mistake in that one! "The Wrath of Khan" was a great movie and one of my favorites! The scene when Spock dies was very emotional and as I said on another thread I wanted to crawl through the screen and hold Kirk and weep with him!
I don't know what Abrams was thinking when he did Star Trek into Darkness! To me it just wasn't right!
Just my thoughts on it
I am hoping this next one will be better!
Loyalkat
I don't know what Abrams was thinking when he did Star Trek into Darkness! To me it just wasn't right!
Just my thoughts on it
I am hoping this next one will be better!
Loyalkat
Every other movie repeatedly rips off scenes ( including dialogue ) from TWOK and features a pasty English Khan?
Well, that's upsetting!
There was a British "Khan" in far more than 20 seconds of that movie.
But that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Remember, every other movie had a CumberKhan in it. You said so yourself.
I mean, I can see it happening in a Star Trek film. It still sucks, but Khan is a Star Trek character, after all.
It's his appearances in films like Steel Magnolias and Hoop Dreams that really make you go, "What in the bejeezus is going on here?"
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