A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

[Ayelbourne]

Well, Jon would still be a bastard, since Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't married. Thus, he'd have no claim to the throne.

Also, Dany's claim would be weaker than Aegon's as well, if he is the real deal.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Well, Jon would still be a bastard, since Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't married.

A lot of the theories assume that they were, since otherwise there wouldn't be any real need for the Kingsguard to be present (since nobody there was in the royal family).

 

[Ayelbourne]

I don't see why Rhaegar couldn't issue orders to the Kingsguard, being heir to the throne and all.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Well, maybe, but Ned specifically calls attention to the fact that the Kingsguard's presence at the Tower is odd because there are no members of the royal family present and the presumed heir (Viserys) is elsewhere. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, as many people speculate, there's no reason for them not to have been married, especially with the kid on the way.

 

[Anwar]

There's the question of whether or not the rest of the Kingdoms would accept polygamy as a practice anymore from their Royal Family. In the past, I can see them accepting it because the Targaryens had dragons to force the issue but by the present they were gone. If the 7 Kingdoms all more or less decided that they would not recognize Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna then that's that.

 

[PsychoPere]

Well, maybe, but Ned specifically calls attention to the fact that the Kingsguard's presence at the Tower is odd because there are no members of the royal family present and the presumed heir (Viserys) is elsewhere. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, as many people speculate, there's no reason for them not to have been married, especially with the kid on the way.

In addition, those three Kingsguard made it very clear to Ned that they were in their proper place. Being at the Tower of Joy could only be their proper place if they were convinced that Viserys was not the heir to the Iron Throne, not to protect a mistress and/or bastard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

 

[Anwar]

That whole sequence was a dream Ned was having, not necessarily what truly happened there.

I'm still wondering how, if that was over Jon, they were so sure it'd be a boy. If it was a girl, I'm sure they'd all feel like real idiots and think "Aw damn, we should have sent one of us to go to Viserys just in case..."

 

[CaptainCanada]

It may not have been literal, but it was written by Martin to supply clues; anything there is deliberate, so calling attention to why the Kingsguard are there and not anywhere else (and in particular, with Viserys) has a reason.

In terms of the sex of the baby, Rhaegar was presumably convinced that it would be "the Prince who was promised", hence, a male; the Kingsguard knights would obey his orders until it became apparent they were wrong (ie, if it was a girl, which it wasn't).

 

[Anwar]

But they really should have been with Aerys the whole time. Rhaegar took Barristan and 2 other KG with him to the Trident where they all died except for Barristan. Then they left Jaime alone with Aerys in KL while the three of them went to the Tower.

Aerys was still alive, they should've ALL been with him. And if they had already decided to take orders from Rhaegar over Aerys, then they were already all Oathbreakers so their actions no longer reflect the code of the KG.

 

[hyzmarca]

There's the question of whether or not the rest of the Kingdoms would accept polygamy as a practice anymore from their Royal Family. In the past, I can see them accepting it because the Targaryens had dragons to force the issue but by the present they were gone. If the 7 Kingdoms all more or less decided that they would not recognize Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna then that's that.

Well, there's no real proof anyway. Everyone who knows is dead. If Jon does become king it will be by right I'm trying to save you motherfuckers from a zombie apocalypse, not right of blood.

There's no guarantee that there's be any Kingdoms levft on Westeros once the White Walkers have made their move, much less a whole seven of them. It's quite possible that the Night's Watch could become the new ruling caste out of necessity rather than any desire for power.

 

[PsychoPere]

Aerys was still alive, they should've ALL been with him. And if they had already decided to take orders from Rhaegar over Aerys, then they were already all Oathbreakers so their actions no longer reflect the code of the KG.

As the Crown Prince, Rhaegar was as entitled to Kingsguard protection as the King himself. So, no, they did not all need to be with Aerys.

There's the question of whether or not the rest of the Kingdoms would accept polygamy as a practice anymore from their Royal Family. In the past, I can see them accepting it because the Targaryens had dragons to force the issue but by the present they were gone. If the 7 Kingdoms all more or less decided that they would not recognize Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna then that's that.

Well, there's no real proof anyway. Everyone who knows is dead. If Jon does become king it will be by right I'm trying to save you motherfuckers from a zombie apocalypse, not right of blood.

Not all... Lord Howland Reed of Greywater Watch is still alive, and hasn't left his castle since returning from Robert's Rebellion and the Tower of Joy.

 

[superdeluxe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8lG_Kn_FTQ

New trailer love it, so soon

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Here's the latest Daily Raven:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujZzs3uTKlk&feature=player_embedded[/yt]

 

[InklingStar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8lG_Kn_FTQ

New trailer love it, so soon

Awesome. It makes me wish I had the season 2 boxset right beside season 1 right now.

 

[Klaus]

 

[CaptainCanada]

Aerys was still alive, they should've ALL been with him. And if they had already decided to take orders from Rhaegar over Aerys, then they were already all Oathbreakers so their actions no longer reflect the code of the KG.

Er, no, that's not how the Kingsguard works. They're sworn to protect and follow the orders of the entire royal family, and can be sent off to do whatever the royal family orders them to do (obviously the reigning monarch's orders supersede the others, but in the absence of countermands that doesn't matter). There are innumerable examples of that throughout the series. They most commonly stay close to members of the royal family, but have been shown doing other things all the time (Barristan's history includes a number of military expeditions where no members of the royal family are known to have been present, for instance).

There's the question of whether or not the rest of the Kingdoms would accept polygamy as a practice anymore from their Royal Family. In the past, I can see them accepting it because the Targaryens had dragons to force the issue but by the present they were gone. If the 7 Kingdoms all more or less decided that they would not recognize Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna then that's that.

How is that "it"? The rightful Targaryen succession only matters at all inasmuch as the forces that believe themselves sworn to the rightful Targaryen succession and want to conquer Westeros for said right believe it. It's not an actual matter of legality, or something the Seven Kingdoms can contest; they've already gotten rid of the Targaryens, and will be forced to take them back at swordpoint. The question of the succession matters because Dany and other loyalists like Conington believe they're carrying out the legitimate succession, and if they found out that their candidates weren't rightfully king, there's a question of what they would then do. Dany, in particular.

 

[Yoda]

Here's the latest Daily Raven:

Wait... is that how you're supposed to pronounce Jaqen? Zhockin? I don't like that.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

There's another character profile out, this time for Robb Stark:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NApAtmugS1c&feature=player_embedded[/yt]

 

[DarthPipes]

The point about the Kingsguard is a point I've been making for a while elsewhere. The Kingsguard serves the King. The King can extend Kingsguard protection to his family. But ultimately, the King comes first. Jaime recalls listening to Aerys II abuse his wife and being told by another KG (Darry I think) that they are supposed to protect the Queen from everyone except the King.

If Aerys II did not order those 3 Kingsguard to be at the Tower of Joy, then Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were all oathbreakers. They chose the prince over the king, which is not the purpose of the Kingsguard. If they're oathbreakers then Ned should hold them in contempt like he holds Jaime.

 

[Anwar]

One purpose I could see to Aerys ordering them to the Tower would be for them to guard Lyanna so Aerys could use her as a hostage against Ned and Robert, just like how Aerys was using Elia and his grandchildren (and Jaime) as hostages against the Dorne and Lannisters. Maybe if they saw that she was pregnant (and ran into Rhaegar while there) they realized it was safer for her health that she stay at the Tower and they would also stay there to keep her captive on Aerys' orders.

Rhaegar told Jaime, more or less, that he planned to overthrow his father after he defeated Robert so he went along with it since he figured they wouldn't harm her and once he was King he would just order them to stand down.