A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion
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I think Dany, as the surviving legitimate Targaryen, could legitimise him if she wanted, assuming some distant future where they meet, recognise each other and want to. IIRC - it's been a while - wasn't Robb talking about legitimising Jon as heir of Winterfell before everything went tits up? So it's a doable thing.
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Even if legitimized, Jon would have to turn his back on his vow to the Watch to take the throne, though, so that's another complicating factor.
Robb made someone his heir and put it in writing, but it wasn't revealed who he ended up naming.
Robb made someone his heir and put it in writing, but it wasn't revealed who he ended up naming.
IIRC, Stannis offered Jon Winterfell, so I guess there's a way to turn back on the vow and not being beheaded for it. Anyway, bastards can be legitimized by kings - the example was Bolton's bastard who was legitimized following the Red Wedding.
I don't think there were many possibilities for Robb - he thought his younger brothers are dead and he has no idea what's going on with his sisters. His father is dead, his uncle is missing beyond the Wall and he basically has no other possible candidates besides Jon. As far as he knew - he and Jon were the only male Starks left alive.
^^^
Yeah, that's true.
Another wrinkle is that some fans have a theory that there's been a switch regarding Jeyne and that the real Jeyne is carrying Robb's child.
Yeah, that's true.
Another wrinkle is that some fans have a theory that there's been a switch regarding Jeyne and that the real Jeyne is carrying Robb's child.
Jeyne, Robb's wife? That's the first time I'm hearing about this theory ...
The Westerlings seem to have had some kind of understanding with Tywin Lannister, the mother refers to this after Riverrun falls. It's probably too conspirational to suppose they intentionally tried to marry Robb so Tywin could wean the Freys away from the Starks and have them kill them all, but I do wonder what's up with that.
That's a lot of ifs. Who would actually know that Jon Snow was Rheagar's son? He looks every bit a Stark, so it won't quite be 'egad, you're plainly a Baratheon' like Gendry.
No, if there's anyone who can identify Jon as Rhaegar's son, it would be someone who knew he had a son by Lyanna... and sort of a seance, that isn't gonna be Ned Sterk.
As far as Daenerys goes, Barristan the Bold may know precisely this.
In fact, isn't the last time Barristan saw Daenerys the time he revealed to her all he knew about the Targaryens? If he knew, then he may have already told Daenerys about Jon. There's food for thought, or not.
Beyond Barristan, it would not surprise me if Varys knew.
Lord Commander of the Night Watch, King of the North, King of the Seven Kingdoms.. christ, we may as well make him Azor Ahai at this rate.
That's a lot of ifs. Who would actually know that Jon Snow was Rheagar's son? He looks every bit a Stark, so it won't quite be 'egad, you're plainly a Baratheon' like Gendry.
No, if there's anyone who can identify Jon as Rhaegar's son, it would be someone who knew he had a son by Lyanna... and sort of a seance, that isn't gonna be Ned Sterk.
As far as Daenerys goes, Barristan the Bold may know precisely this.
In fact, isn't the last time Barristan saw Daenerys the time he revealed to her all he knew about the Targaryens? If he knew, then he may have already told Daenerys about Jon. There's food for thought, or not.
Beyond Barristan, it would not surprise me if Varys knew.
Robb explicitly made Jon Snow his heir, actually, though over his mother's objections. I don't remember offhand if any witnesses to this besides Catelyn even survived, though. There were other possible candidates, which she referred to briefly, but they were basically like descendants of some great grand uncle of Ned's, the sort of family many times removed who normally wouldn't be taking over.
Lord Commander of the Night Watch, King of the North, King of the Seven Kingdoms.. christ, we may as well make him Azor Ahai at this rate.
I wasn't so much imagining an "Eegads, it's you!" moment as that if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, it will become known somehow at some point, and then such things as his connection to Dany and the Targaryens would become relevant.
But I agree there's some miles to go before we get there.
Shurik, IIRC that theory is based on the fact that Cat's description of Jeyne includes her having good childbearing hips, but when Jaime sees Jeyne, he observes she has narrow hips. One of those details that could either be extremely deliberate and meaningful or else an utterly meaningless mistake.
But I agree there's some miles to go before we get there.
Shurik, IIRC that theory is based on the fact that Cat's description of Jeyne includes her having good childbearing hips, but when Jaime sees Jeyne, he observes she has narrow hips. One of those details that could either be extremely deliberate and meaningful or else an utterly meaningless mistake.
^
Seems possible. If Jeyne does have Robb's son, I'd assume she's with Brynden Tully.
I guess the question though is, besides Jon himself, who stands to benefit from his parentage being known? If there's someone who wants a Targaryen on the throne and not Daenerys, it has some use, otherwise it's as trivial as Maester Aemon's parentage.
Seems possible. If Jeyne does have Robb's son, I'd assume she's with Brynden Tully.
I'd wager one could find Reed if he wanted you to find him, though. And the Reeds seem to be on pretty good terms with the Starks (what little is left of the family, anyway).
I guess the question though is, besides Jon himself, who stands to benefit from his parentage being known? If there's someone who wants a Targaryen on the throne and not Daenerys, it has some use, otherwise it's as trivial as Maester Aemon's parentage.
Yes, Jeyne Westerling.
I've been refreshing my memory by reading some of the threads at Westeros, and that was Robb's stated intention at the start of the conversation with Catelyn, but some have pointed out that it's only an assumption that he carried through on it rather than being swayed to name someone else - perhaps Arya.
I read the books recently. Arya is assumed to be dead. The options Catelyn resorts to are such distant relatives of the Starks precisely because Arya is assumed to be dead. I thought it was pretty unambiguous about Jon Snow being named his heir, really.
^^^
Fair enough. Jon's possible Targ parentage and the possibility of a Jeyne switcheroo seem like bigger issues than Robb's letter in any event.
Fair enough. Jon's possible Targ parentage and the possibility of a Jeyne switcheroo seem like bigger issues than Robb's letter in any event.
Arya is assumed to be dead even by Varys and Littlefinger, and those two know everything worth knowing.
Checkmate
Commodore
I don't know much about the series but I have read about Cersei's prophecy and how she's prophecized to die. And it just seems to me that Tyrion is a huge red herring in that regard. Jaime, albeit only by a few minutes, is her "little brother." I think her downfall will be at his hands while she's either obsessed with Tyrion or lets her guard down after she's dealt with him.
No idea if any of that's gone down already though. Just something that leapt out at me after I read that tidbit.
No idea if any of that's gone down already though. Just something that leapt out at me after I read that tidbit.
I agree with this. The relationship between Jaime and Cersei notably sours in A Feast for Crows... and besides, prophecies are always more narratively interesting when characters tragically misread them (cf: Oedipus).
I also think that Cersei has misread - perhaps more obviously - the prophecy about being bested by a younger queen. She's convinced that this is Magaery Tyrell but it seems far more likely to be Daenerys Targaryen.
Petyr Baelish seems to be aware of this possibility as well, judging from his 'war of the three queens' quip.
I think there's something else which may somewhat confirm Jon as a Targaryen... Let's not forget that Dany has dragons and a dragon(s) suddenly halting in front of him and acknowledging him in the same way it does Dany would be something. Maybe not anything definitive, but it would lead credibility if at that time he was thought to be a Targaryen.
Dany did also havethat vision about a blue flower (associated with Lyanna) growing in a wall of ice, so there may be something in the idea that she'll recognise/identify him by some fantastical means.
Another hint towards Jon's true parentage and potential legitimacy is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. The Kingsguard are sworn to protect the royal family at all cost. But why were three of them still at the Tower of Joy when Ned, Howland Reed, and the others showed up? By then, Rhaegar Targaryen had been killed at the Trident, which should have meant that Viserys, his younger brother, was now the heir to the throne.
Ned's party didn't ride for the Tower of Joy until they lifted the Siege of Storm's End and after the sack of King's Landing, both of which happened after the Battle of the Trident, so there would have been plenty of time for Arthur Dayne and his two companions to learn of the death of Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's children, and leave to go and protect Viserys. But they didn't. So, to me, that implies that Rhaegar and Lyanna did marry, and Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar's only surviving child, who would be the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.
Ned's party didn't ride for the Tower of Joy until they lifted the Siege of Storm's End and after the sack of King's Landing, both of which happened after the Battle of the Trident, so there would have been plenty of time for Arthur Dayne and his two companions to learn of the death of Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's children, and leave to go and protect Viserys. But they didn't. So, to me, that implies that Rhaegar and Lyanna did marry, and Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar's only surviving child, who would be the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.
Heh, R+L=J finally comes to the Trekbbs. What next, "Who killed Asmodean"?
The people who might know of Jon's true parentage are actually more numerous than is commonly thought.
Howland, obviously.
Varys, obviously. The Spider was around back then.
Littlefinger, might have figured it out.
Barristan, might know, yet have blocked it out.
Jon Connington, presumed dead, but as the Hand of Aerys and Rhaegar's best friend would perhaps have known of Jon. It has been speculated that he is alive and is the Griffon in the Free Cities.
Ashara Dayne, she was an intimate of Elia, Rhaegar, Ned and maybe Lyanna. We're told she threw herself off a cliff, but it has been speculated that she is alive and following Danaerys as the shadowbinder Quaithe.
The people who might know of Jon's true parentage are actually more numerous than is commonly thought.
Howland, obviously.
Varys, obviously. The Spider was around back then.
Littlefinger, might have figured it out.
Barristan, might know, yet have blocked it out.
Jon Connington, presumed dead, but as the Hand of Aerys and Rhaegar's best friend would perhaps have known of Jon. It has been speculated that he is alive and is the Griffon in the Free Cities.
Ashara Dayne, she was an intimate of Elia, Rhaegar, Ned and maybe Lyanna. We're told she threw herself off a cliff, but it has been speculated that she is alive and following Danaerys as the shadowbinder Quaithe.
