A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Course Oblivion only gets 2 stars out of 4 from me.

It's not so much bad as disappointing. I thought it started off with a mystery that I found quite involving with the ship much closer to home and a new warp drive, Torres/Paris getting married, Torres dying etc. Then the big reveal comes and it was such a let down. It lost me there. "That's it?"

The episode had a few fleeting moments of poignancy especially towards the end where the duplicate VOY disintegrates just as the real one arrives never knowing of the adventures of their doppelgangers but the bulk of the episode just didn't work. Still, it is better than the next episode which I consider the show's worst--"The Fight"(pointless appearance by Ray Walston, overdose on technobabble, cringe-worthy acting by Beltran/Picardo, incoherent weird story, bland Chakotay as the headliner).

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Course Oblivion...I found it odd that they decided to revisit Demon of all things.

I actually kind of like this episode, but I can't really explain why.

I don't think they actually built a new Voyager, I think it just somehow..formed like they did.

Probably best not to think about it too much, you'll just give yourself a headache.

 

[apenpaap]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Course: Oblivion is one of my favourites. 9/10.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It's not so much bad as disappointing. I thought it started off with a mystery that I found quite involving with the ship much closer to home and a new warp drive, Torres/Paris getting married, Torres dying etc. Then the big reveal comes and it was such a let down. It lost me there. "That's it?"

That's the problem for me. When I first saw the episode I was shocked but pleased that Tom and B'Elanna were getting married because it showed that things were actually happening on Voyager, I was disappointed to find out that this wasn't happening to the real Tom and B'Elanna. If the episode had played out like a normal Voyager episode with nothing spectacular happening until people get sick then I would have enjoyed it more.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Demon Spawn (**)

Come on, that's a way better title than Course: Oblivion.

I somehow missed Demon when it first aired so when I saw this episode for the first time I thought it was quite good, but having seem Demon twice since then this episode just doesn't make sense. Where did the biomemetic Voyager come from? According to the timeline established in this episode they had under 13 days to build Voyager (and replicate Shmully somehow) and leave the demon planet, forgetting who they really are in the process. They also adapted to breath oxygen even though it was poisonous to them last time.

I like the idea of this episode, I like quirky episodes like this where everything is seen from a different angle than how we usually see things. But I think that the fatal mistake this episode makes is that events happening on this duplicate Voyager are more interesting than the normally static nature of the real Voyager. Tom and B'Elanna get married, a new baby is born, they devise a new method of propulsion, people actually die... The ending is a reset button of sorts and next week we'll go back to a Voyager where there is 9 main characters who will fail to grow as they did on the duplicate ship. We'll have to wait another year and a half before we see the real Tom and B'Elanna get married, and even then we wont actually see it.

Exactly my thoughts on this episode, except that I'd rate it even lower. I though "Demon" was ok. This episode just annoyed me though, for all the reasons you named. This is one of those episodes that I never plan on seeing again.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

What made them think 'Demon' of all episodes warranted a sequel? I mean... It's DEMON. My head's still recovering from the banging against the wall that one did. Granted, I do consider Course: Oblivion (Demon Spawn is a good name, actually. It just gives away their 'twist' a hell of a lot sooner) better than Demon, but, really, I don't want to know what could be worse than Demon. Oh, wait. Code of Honor.

And I'm seriously bugged by the fact that... Just where the heck did they get the technology required to build the ship and they just forgot that they were 'biomemetic lifeforms' or whatever? I mean, that's kind of a big thing to forget.

Nice effort, but was this needed, especially in light of the fact that they break down completely before encountering the real Voyager? I mean, it's not an episode unhappening, but it's basically an hour spent just watching peope die for no other reason than fate's made them their bitch. *Beat* Huh. And I used to say Voyager was never depressing...

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Ahhh, Tom and B'Elanna, you are indeed my favourite fully biological characters on this show! I quite liked this episode and at least it wasn't all a dream, even if it didn't happen to the real crew.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

But what was that stuff about nearly being home? They're not really, are they?

 

[apenpaap]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

But what was that stuff about nearly being home? They're not really, are they?

The copies had developed a quantum slipstream drive, IIRC, so they were. The real crew however is still on the far side of the Beta quadrant.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Demon Spawn (**)

Come on, that's a way better title than Course: Oblivion.

I somehow missed Demon when it first aired so when I saw this episode for the first time I thought it was quite good, but having seem Demon twice since then this episode just doesn't make sense. Where did the biomemetic Voyager come from? According to the timeline established in this episode they had under 13 days to build Voyager (and replicate Shmully somehow) and leave the demon planet, forgetting who they really are in the process. They also adapted to breath oxygen even though it was poisonous to them last time.

You know, all I could figure is that when Voyager was sinking in the biomimetic goo in "Demon" that after the ship left the remaining goo congealed into another ship, and the duplicates forgot who they were. And apparently, the replicated Voyager tech works as if it were the real thing except the advanced warp core, so I guess that's where the EMH came from. Regarding what they were breathing, I was guessing it wasn't "really" oxygen, just how the ship wasn't "really" made of duranium and whatnot, but it read that way to their fake sensors.

Flimsy, but that's about the best I could do.

I like the idea of this episode, I like quirky episodes like this where everything is seen from a different angle than how we usually see things. But I think that the fatal mistake this episode makes is that events happening on this duplicate Voyager are more interesting than the normally static nature of the real Voyager. Tom and B'Elanna get married, a new baby is born, they devise a new method of propulsion, people actually die... The ending is a reset button of sorts and next week we'll go back to a Voyager where there is 9 main characters who will fail to grow as they did on the duplicate ship. We'll have to wait another year and a half before we see the real Tom and B'Elanna get married, and even then we wont actually see it.

Does anybody else find it ironic that duplicate Harry appears to be the last main character to die on the duplicate ship. Things really are different there.

Rule # 3 reinforced again.

Generally, I agree with your assessment. Stuff actually happened on this Voyager, and, honestly, I felt a little worse for them than I might have for the "real" ones.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Fight (0)

The final shot of this episode gets it exactly right; this episode is like being punched in the head.

 

[apenpaap]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yeah, the Fight sucks. 0/10

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"The Fight" gets 1 star out of four from me. This is VOY's worst episode.

I don't mind technobabble but this episode overdosed on it to the point where I just had to tune out bcause it was just so tiring to hear as reams and reams of it was spouted. This also had a pointless guest appearance by Walston. I hate boxing. Beltran looked ridiculous in the boxing uniform even wearing a t-shirt. Beltran and Picardo's acting were horrible. The pop psychology was totally incoherent.

This also shows that Menosky has a hard time either getting a handle on these weird symbolic concept shows or that they are good ideas but just not well suited for a one hour episode. I didn't care for his TNG's "Emergence" or "Masks" or DS9's "Distance Voices" either and now this episode.

Thankfully this back-to-back-to-back trifecta of crap ends with "Think Tank" but unfortunately goes back to weak crap with "Juggernaut". Season five is just inconsistent in quality.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"The Fight" is a little worse than "Threshold" IMO.

No stars for you!

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

But all that came to an end this afternoon thanks to the truth being exposed to be by the brilliant musings of Anwar. His argument cut to the core of my being without even knowing me or reading much of this thread. Who can argue against such insightful comments as "once a hater always a hater" or the pinnacle of human debate which is "yes, actually, yes"? I tried to argue against it, but my rebuttals could never match such well thought out arguments.

So I am sorry to everybody who read this thread thinking that I was trying to be fair to the show, I can only ask for your forgiveness on this deception.

Hey! I have to read that damn thread. Don't make light of my suffering

Actually, I'm glad you mentioned this thread over there because it caught my attention and now I've read it. You definitely have good insights, even if I don't agree entirely always. It gives a fresh perspective on Voyager without having to actually rewatch all the episodes (actually, in many cases, watch them in the first place, since I tended to watch just the "big" episodes and almost gave up on those after Dark Frontier).

As far as the torpedo count goes (I forgive them for the shuttle count because they at least don't specifically say shuttles can't be replicated and they did build other flying craft), I wonder how the count would be if they didn't waste 13 in Night (which I can't think of any excuse for, it wasn't even that serious of an enemy). I'm surprised they actually did a good job rationing them before that point. I guess if they could go through the remaining show using only 3 (yeah, not going to happen) and I could forgive them (Night was a waste of good potential anyway).

 

[Bertie]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

And tragically, it is with "The Disease" and "The Fight" that Michael Taylor (who famously wrote the first drafts for DS9: "The Visitor" and DS9: "In the Pale Moonlight" and went on to do BSG stuff) first gets his name polluted by some real Trek clunkers.

He'll get credit on a number of decent episodes from here on out, though. Not to mention "Counterpoint" from this season

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I don't mind technobabble but this episode overdosed on it to the point where I just had to tune out bcause it was just so tiring to hear as reams and reams of it was spouted.

Oh god the technobabble... this piece of dialogue stood out:

CHAKOTAY: Chaotic space intersects ours at the eighteenth dimensional gradient. Voyager entered through A trimetric fracture.
SHMULLY: Trimetric fracture?
CHAKOTAY: We must escape, or we'll be destroyed.
SHMULLY: How do we escape?
CHAKOTAY: We've got to alter our warp field.
SHMULLY: In what way?
CHAKOTAY: Rentrillic projectory.
SHMULLY: Rentrillic?
CHAKOTAY: It doesn't make any sense. I can't understand it! I'm scared I'm losing my mind!

I said that last line in conjunction with Chakotay.

"The Fight" is a little worse than "Threshold" IMO.

No stars for you!

Hey, I was going to say that! And I've never even seen that episode of Seinfeld. There's definitely something going on with our brains.

The Fight is bad, very bad, but I still think Threshold is worse just for the way that they mangled simple science. Then again, Neelix giving Chakotay back-rub while Shmully dances around a boxing-ring in a lab-coat... it's really close.

Actually, I'm glad you mentioned this thread over there because it caught my attention and now I've read it.

That was my plan all along, free advertising.

You definitely have good insights, even if I don't agree entirely always. It gives a fresh perspective on Voyager without having to actually rewatch all the episodes (actually, in many cases, watch them in the first place, since I tended to watch just the "big" episodes and almost gave up on those after Dark Frontier).

Don't trust me, it's all a part of my plan to completely tear into Voyager in a most violent manner. I don't know when I'm going to do it, I didn't even know I was going to do it until yesterday, but I'm most of the way through the show so it could happen any day now. Be on your guard.

I'm surprised they actually did a good job rationing them before that point.

I was surprised too and I was shocked to see so many torpedoes fired in Night. Braga must have made a decision to drop any attempts to ration torpedoes when he took over the show, it's the only reason I can think to explain it.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Fight is bad, very bad, but I still think Threshold is worse just for the way that they mangled simple science.

I've never really got why so many hate "Threshold". I thought it was an okay episode--certainly not the abomination most claim it is.

I don't watch Trek for a tutorial in science so stuff like transformations through rapid DNA mutation(TNG's "Genesis" or "Identity Crisis") or a message stored within the DNA of various species(TNG's "The Chase") never bothered me.

I actually thought that the idea that humanity would evolve into a salamander-like being is a neat off-the-wall idea. I like that instead of evolving into some higher form of life such as a non-corporeal entity we become these creatures.

I also thought it had some nice character moments for Paris with Janeway, Kes and the Doctor. Plus it even managed to sneak in the Jonas sub-plot. I'd give it three stars out of four.

Braga must have made a decision to drop any attempts to ration torpedoes when he took over the show, it's the only reason I can think to explain it.

By the time season five rolls around I would think that in the intervening four years the crew would have managed to find alternate supplies or replicate them themselves. So I can't say I would fault Brannon from not obsessing over shuttles or torpedo counts.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I was surprised too and I was shocked to see so many torpedoes fired in Night. Braga must have made a decision to drop any attempts to ration torpedoes when he took over the show, it's the only reason I can think to explain it.

I wonder if it's in the script or if the VFX people screwed up. If it's the latter, maybe they just said "fuck it" after the episode because they used so many. Although it's probably just because they wanted to increase the action and cool ship fight emphasis on the show.

 

[Seven of Five]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^Yeah I think a conscious decision had been made by then to have more action.

'The Disease' is a bit like 'Gravity,' in that I don't remember it very well, except that it was boring. Harry needing permission to make it with Tal was a bit off - I'm sure there was a double standard somewhere. When have other crewmember had to ask permission for sex? 2/5

'Course: Oblivion' was a bit annoying because interesting stuff was happening, just not with our crew. 'Demon' Voyager have developed quantum slipstream, and Tom and B'Elanna married. If they were all exact copies then why hasn't that happened with the real crew. The ending was sad, and a bit cruel for the audience - we sit through the whole episode, yet the 'Demon' crew all die without trace, like nothing happened. Back to square one. 2.5/5

'The Fight' - yuck. 'Threshold' was ridiculous, but I actually laughed at it here or there. This episode was a trainwreck of the highest degree! They didn't even bother trying another Chakotay episode till season 7. Boothby's appearance in 'In The Flesh' had already been a bit gratuitous and unecessary. Why on Earth was he in this episode? Non-sensiscal, boring, just flat-out pants. 0/5

That's not a very strong batch of episodes. What's next?

*wiki*

'Think Tank' and 'Juggernaut.'