A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Wow, thanks for those, NCC-1701. Braga's showing his ass there. Why do I get the feeling Fuller actually agrees with Fatjo?

I happen to agree with you. Seventeen? Good God. I could imagine that Voyager started with at most four shuttles of various designs, and could maybe manage to construct at most another four out of the proverbial spare parts, duct tape, and chewing gum, but... SEVENTEEN? My God.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

According to this list the Voyager lost probably seventeen (!) shuttles over the course of the series.

This site has some interesting quotes by the writers and producers of the series ...

As writers, we do not destroy shuttles out of cruel humor toward the fans. Rather, it is our rationale that the Voyager crew can simply build more of them. Or repair them. Etc. Shuttles are just a collection of steel and conduits and technology, like any other part of the ship. They can build them at will. No big deal.

Wow, this is complete bullshit. He sounds like he really believes the nonsense he is talking about. He also sounds a bit arrogant to me. And just to put that into perspective, I'm not one who usually bashes Braga. However, this statement is just ridiculous.

No, it is not utter bullshit bcause I happen to agree with him. Fans sometimes can't see the forest from the trees and get so caught up in such silly minutae that they go overboard in criticizing a show or the writers.

Brannon's rationale is exactly what I assumed was the case. Did we actually need an episode dedicated to us seeing them finding resources, replicating or constructing parts and building a new shuttlecraft? Personally, I don't think so but we did with "Extreme Risk" with the Delta Flyer. And BSG did an episode where Tyrol and his team built a craft. It wasn't the most interesting thing to watch. I'd rather have some off-hand comment than seeing it take place.

I'm trying to think of another example where the fans fail to use their minds to fill in some gaps. Oh yes, another popular complaint is the fact that we never heard anymore about the baby Borg from "Collective". Geez, how hard is it to figure out they probably found its species in the region and turned it over to them.

At the end of the day, VOY had plenty of problems centering around the most fundamental aspects of a tv show--namely the writing and bland characters. Not arcs, not shuttles, not torpedo counts, not missing Borg babies.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

No, you don't have to stop a thread at 1,000 any more (unless the mod says so, of course). One of those Janeway threads in TrekLit went on well past 1,000 before it finally petered out. The mod there said pretty much what Count Zero said - the old software required threads to stop at 1,000 posts but the current software does not.

So I don't know why you have to restart the screencap game. I'd take it personally if I were you.

Ah, of course you knew.

Well, I don't personally do it, LeadHead does. He may have his own reasons for restarting after 1000...

According to this list the Voyager lost probably seventeen (!) shuttles over the course of the series.

This site has some interesting quotes by the writers and producers of the series ...

As writers, we do not destroy shuttles out of cruel humor toward the fans. Rather, it is our rationale that the Voyager crew can simply build more of them. Or repair them. Etc. Shuttles are just a collection of steel and conduits and technology, like any other part of the ship. They can build them at will. No big deal.

Wow, this is complete bullshit. He sounds like he really believes the nonsense he is talking about. He also sounds a bit arrogant to me. And just to put that into perspective, I'm not one who usually bashes Braga. However, this statement is just ridiculous.

No, it is not utter bullshit bcause I happen to agree with him. Fans sometimes can't see the forest from the trees and get so caught up in such silly minutae that they go overboard in criticizing a show or the writers.

Brannon's rationale is exactly what I assumed was the case. Did we actually need an episode dedicated to us seeing them finding resources, replicating or constructing parts and building a new shuttlecraft? Personally, I don't think so but we did with "Extreme Risk" with the Delta Flyer. And BSG did an episode where Tyrol and his team built a craft. It wasn't the most interesting thing to watch. I'd rather have some off-hand comment than seeing it take place.

I'm trying to think of another example where the fans fail to use their minds to fill in some gaps. Oh yes, another popular complaint is the fact that we never heard anymore about the baby Borg from "Collective". Geez, how hard is it to figure out they probably found its species in the region and turned it over to them.

At the end of the day, VOY had plenty of problems centering around the most fundamental aspects of a tv show--namely the writing and bland characters. Not arcs, not shuttles, not torpedo counts, not missing Borg babies.

When one of the key aspects of the premise is that Our Heroes don't have limitless supplies, I think at least a casual reference to building more shuttles was indeed fully necessary. It's not a failure to fill in gaps, it's that we shouldn't have to fill in these gaps in the first place when these gaps are a failure to fully execute the series' premise.

There's a fine line between 'fan' and 'apologist.'

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Shuttles are just a collection of steel and conduits and technology, like any other part of the ship. They can build them at will. No big deal.

So much for "limited resources". You know, part of the show's original premise?

No, it is not utter bullshit bcause I happen to agree with him. Fans sometimes can't see the forest from the trees and get so caught up in such silly minutae that they go overboard in criticizing a show or the writers.

I'm trying to think of another example where the fans fail to use their minds to fill in some gaps.

Well, at least you admit there's a gap.

At the end of the day, VOY had plenty of problems centering around the most fundamental aspects of a tv show--namely the writing and bland characters. Not arcs, not shuttles, not torpedo counts, not missing Borg babies.

How about violating one of the premises the show was set up on?

Even if you count that as a small problem: Just because the show has larger problems, no one says we have to overlook the small ones. That is, no one else is saying it.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Startrekwatcher, you kind of have a point. Part of the fun of these message boards is hashing out these points though. And I'm with you on the Borg-baby.

Beyond the rather silly idea of shuttles appearing out of mid air, the more serious problem is the Voyager writers relying on shuttle crashes over and over again to advance the story.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

When one of the key aspects of the premise is that Our Heroes don't have limitless supplies, I think at least a casual reference to building more shuttles was indeed fully necessary.

Well we'll have to disagree. I think that most people could or should be able to have realized on their own that the crew were building more shuttles or torpedoes. And we saw several times the crew looking for materials/parts(Phage, The Cloud, Resistance), planning ways to mine materials(Phage, Blood Fever), shopping like the outpost in Fair Trade etc. So I think it is hardly a worthy criticism and certainly not one worth harping on and villifying Brannon Braga over.

 

[JustKate]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

No, you don't have to stop a thread at 1,000 any more (unless the mod says so, of course). One of those Janeway threads in TrekLit went on well past 1,000 before it finally petered out. The mod there said pretty much what Count Zero said - the old software required threads to stop at 1,000 posts but the current software does not.

So I don't know why you have to restart the screencap game. I'd take it personally if I were you.

Ah, of course you knew.

Only because of that "Janeway" thread. It was frightening, but I just could not look away!

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Startrekwatcher, you kind of have a point. Part of the fun of these message boards is hashing out these points though.

I guess if you have a lot of free time on your hands and you really want to over analyze what is simply a tv show and apply a fairly rigid set of realistic standards to what is a fantasy or sci-fi program here we shouldbe flexible enough to allow for some creative leeway that's cool. But when one takes that and uses it as a way to bash relentlessly the show I think it is a bit overboard and silly. Stuff like Fun with DNA, people falling through the floor when they are interphased, five different alien species evolving on one world, humanity volving into a salamander-type creature in the far distant future are things I'm willing to go along with despite their scientific veracity so long as the larger story they are in is entertaining.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Well remember that most of aren't really bashing it. Most of the people here still love Voyager, even those of us who are critical of it at times.

I understand that it may have been dull to see them building new shuttles, etc.. I get that we did occasionally see them scavenging new materials.

But I have to agree with the others who think that the original premise of the show was a sort of limited supplies "roughing it" kind of premise and I think it makes sense to criticize the show for throwing that out the window. The shortages could have been presented in interesting and exciting ways.

I don't have a problem with them building more shuttles, but I don't like how they were treated as basically disposable either.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

At the end of the day, VOY had plenty of problems centering around the most fundamental aspects of a tv show--namely the writing and bland characters. Not arcs, not shuttles, not torpedo counts, not missing Borg babies.

But that's precisely why some people, myself included, pick on the shuttles and torpedo counts, because these writers didn't even bother paying attention to the little things. There has been big debates over the years about who is to blame for Voyager's aversion to risk-taking and continuity, was it the writers, producers or network interference? I seriously doubt that the producers or the network were preventing the writers from adding a few lines into a script about where all these extra shuttles and torpedoes were coming from, so this is a problem which can be fairly pinned on the writers.

This proves that the writers weren't really interested in what was going on in their own show. They weren't bad writers, they were writers who didn't really care or believe in the story they were supposedly telling and that is why the quality of the show suffered.

Yes, that's a lot of information to glean from a tiny piece of information, but that it what I believe was going on.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

There has been big debates over the years about who is to blame for Voyager's aversion to risk-taking and continuity, was it the writers, producers or network interference? I seriously doubt that the producers or the network were preventing the writers from adding a few lines into a script about where all these extra shuttles and torpedoes were coming from, so this is a problem which can be fairly pinned on the writers.

No, I think this is a non-issue made a big deal by some fans who had made the shuttle/torpedo thing their own personal crusade and rightly so the writers figured it wasn't worth devoting a lot of resources storywise to and just assumed fans could figure out where the shuttles and torpedoes were coming. There are plenty of other valid criticisms of the show but in my opinion this wasn't one of them.

This proves that the writers weren't really interested in what was going on in their own show.

Hardly. Bad characterization, inconsistent characterization, silly plots, boring episodes, shallow romance, the last minute abrupt C/7 romance, introducing the Borg Civil War and then not going anywhere with it, telling not one but two Irish holoprogram fluff in one season with a whole new Quadrant of alien life to exploit etc are the proof the writers weren't that interested and burnt out.

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Janeway said the torpedoes were irreplacable yet they always seemed to use the same torpedoes. There was an episode where they were going to buy new weapons...but didn't. Would it have killed them to mention once that they had replenished their torpedo complement?

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

This proves that the writers weren't really interested in what was going on in their own show.

Hardly. Bad characterization, inconsistent characterization, silly plots, boring episodes, shallow romance, the last minute abrupt C/7 romance, introducing the Borg Civil War and then not going anywhere with it, telling not one but two Irish holoprogram fluff in one season with a whole new Quadrant of alien life to exploit etc are the proof the writers weren't that interested and burnt out.

But those are also the hallmarks of bad writers who don't know what they are doing, those things don't necessarily mean that the writers didn't care about what they were producing. A bad writer who cares about their show is almost indistinguishable from a good writer who treats their show like a job. The level of attention to detail is one way of telling them apart.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

That's a good point, GodBen. I hadn't thought of it that way.

 

[Michael]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

But how the hell can you mess up a meal with a food replicator? There's even a reference to her burning a meatloaf or something. Bizarre.

Yeah, that one had me go too. I rewatched Ashes to Ashes the other day and also found that bit rather questionable. I see what they were going for (cheap humor), but considering what we learned about the replicator throughout all the series this was just plain silly.

So I don't know why you have to restart the screencap game. I'd take it personally if I were you.

The reason is simple – to attract newer members to also join in on the fun. Members who might otherwise feel intimidated by a thread that has already over a thousand replies. And I understand that sentiment.

Did we actually need an episode dedicated to us seeing them finding resources, replicating or constructing parts and building a new shuttlecraft?

Well, if you describe it that way it does sound very boring. I wouldn't want to watch that either. But with the help of my vast imagination I am actually able to think of ways to make the search/fight for resources very interesting and dramatic. Voyager's very premise pretty much demanded for the writers to deal with these issues on-screen. (Because why else would you establish that premise in the first place if telling the same old stories is what you really want to do?) And you are correct, there are episodes which mention them finding resources and replicating or constructing parts. But those things are never really the point of their respective episodes. (Which, really, they should be.) Mostly they are merely a motor to craft the generic science-fiction plot they really want to tell.

At the end of the day, VOY had plenty of problems centering around the most fundamental aspects of a tv show--namely the writing and bland characters. Not arcs, not shuttles, not torpedo counts, not missing Borg babies.

Yes, and they were all symptoms of the same disease: Bad writing.

When one of the key aspects of the premise is that Our Heroes don't have limitless supplies, I think at least a casual reference to building more shuttles was indeed fully necessary. It's not a failure to fill in gaps, it's that we shouldn't have to fill in these gaps in the first place when these gaps are a failure to fully execute the series' premise.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Stuff like Fun with DNA, people falling through the floor when they are interphased, five different alien species evolving on one world, humanity volving into a salamander-type creature in the far distant future are things I'm willing to go along with despite their scientific veracity so long as the larger story they are in is entertaining.

Which many times it sadly wasn't.

Don't get me wrong. I like Voyager, I really do. But that doesn't mean I can't criticize it. Look at it this way, I criticize it because I like it. And because I really wanted to love it.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Favourite Son (0)

Need I explain?

 

[tomalak301]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

No, but I really hope you like the next episode. I'd probably put it in the top 5 episodes of the series for me. The Introduction of the cute, but oh so brief Jennifer Lien.

 

[Michael]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Favourite Son (0)

Need I explain?

No. I think that's pretty elaborate and detailed. With your review you clearly went into detail about every recommendable aspect of this episode.

 

[tomalak301]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

By the way, last night I watched Rise and didn't find it to be that bad. I liked what it did to the Neelix/Tuvok relationship and just really liked Neelix as a whole in this episode. Didn't like the guest characters all that much and the alien plot felt tacked on but in this Triumverate of terror, Rise was probably the best one. I also liked Darkling to an extent as well but yeah it wasn't all that terrific.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Favourite Son (0)

Need I explain?

Ahhhh, I forgot about that episode. Voyager at it's absolute worst.

Hang in there. Some people here will argue this, but the show just gets so much better from season 4 onwards.