A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I remember enjoying 'Dreadnought' even though, like you say, it's nothing special.

The missile is far too advanced compared to Cardassian technology we have seen up until this point, and the fact that B'Elanna spent all this time programming in various probabilities that the missile should know how to react to without Chakotay finding out is completely out there when it comes to suspending disbelief. I'm surprised she didn't program in a probability that the missile would get pulled into the DQ considering everything else she programmed into it.

Agreed. I have thought it might have made more sense if the missile had a somewhat different origin. Even if the Cardassians built it, you mean to tell me they wasted it on the Maquis? What, did it have an expiration date?

I would have enjoyed it more if it had been one of a series of such weapons (perhaps more limited than as was depicted) that the Cardassians had positioned for use against, let's say the Federation, and the Maquis had in turn stolen this one and reprogrammed it for use against the Cardassians. It might have been interesting had the missile been of exotic origin - someone random like the Tholians or something - someone who also hates Our Heroes but has more advanced tech than the Cardassians, and then the Cardassians bought/stole it from them. Hell, make it be Iconian. They seem to be the go-to folks for doomsday tech.

There is some nice stuff towards the end where Janeway evacuates the ship and prepares to sacrifice herself. This helps to make up for how badly she was written in Prototype.

Agreed. I think this is one of the reasons I enjoyed the episode so much - the depiction of Janeway, combined with B'Elanna having to take responsibility for her actions as a Maquis, in particular something she probably thought she'd never hear about again.

They fired at least seven torpedoes in this episode. It seems the rationing is over.

It begins.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

They should have just removed Neelix, nearly everybody hated him anyway.

Not everyone. It seems to me that many hate Neelix just because it is commonly accepted to hate him. I have never had any problems with the character. I guess same could be said about Voyager in general as well. It is easy to "hate" it just because other's hate it too.

Dreadnought (**½)

Dreadnought is one of my favs from Season 2. Definitely worth of **** (fours stars) at least.

 

[plynch]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It seems to me that many hate Neelix just because it is commonly accepted to hate him. I have never had any problems with the character. I guess same could be said about Voyager in general as well. It is easy to "hate" it just because other's hate it too.

I like Voyager ok. It's growing on me in spite of the several dull-as-dishwater characters. Tuvok, Doc, Belanna and Tom both being imperfect, are all good. Neelix, though - ouch! Partly it is the actor's oily voice.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Dull characters? Oh wow. We must watch two different shows.

 

[Brit]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm having some difficulty with one of Godben's criteria, in that he deducts amounts if the episode "could" have been done on Next Generation. It doesn't matter "if it could" have been done on Next Generation, it wasn't, Next Generation was over as a series and the episode couldn't have been done anywhere but Voyager. You need to rethink that if you are trying to be fair because it looks like you are building in failure.

An awful lot of the episodes on Next Generation, especially during the first season "could have been done" on the Original Series and in fact two of those episodes "The Child" and "Devil's Due" were actually written for the Original Series relaunch, which didn't come off. In other words they started out as Original Series episodes.

Voyager characters were not dull; the cast had the best chemistry in all of the series. Now you as an individual may not have clicked with certain characters, but that doesn't mean that they didn't click with other people.

Brit

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm having some difficulty with one of GodBen's criteria, in that he deducts amounts if the episode "could" have been done on Next Generation. It doesn't matter "if it could" have been done on Next Generation, it wasn't, Next Generation was over as a series and the episode couldn't have been done anywhere but Voyager. You need to rethink that if you are trying to be fair because it looks like you are building in failure.

TNG and Voyager are two completely different series, there should not be this sort of attitude towards the shows that it is okay if they have the same sort of episodes. Voyager had a very different premise to TNG and Voyager works best when it uses its premise to explore greater issues than TNG ever could.

I wouldn't accept it is an episode of The West Wing felt like The Sopranos or an episode of nuBSG felt like Lost, so I'm not going to accept it if any one episode of Star Trek feels like an episode from one of the other Trek series.

An awful lot of the episodes on Next Generation, especially during the first season "could have been done" on the Original Series and in fact two of those episodes "The Child" and "Devil's Due" were actually written for the Original Series relaunch, which didn't come off. In other words they started out as Original Series episodes.

And that is one of the reasons why I think the first two seasons of TNG are mostly crap. TNG only came into its own in season three when Michael Piller took over the writing staff and started doing stories which focused on the characters rather than the sci-fi. When Voyager does an episode which is character specific, such as an exploration of the Doctor or Torres or whoever, I don't mark it down. If an episode could have been done of TNG with minor alterations then I mark it down.

Voyager characters were not dull; the cast had the best chemistry in all of the series. Now you as an individual may not have clicked with certain characters, but that doesn't mean that they didn't click with other people.

I agree that this cast isn't dull, at least not in the middle of the second season. But I do remember that a lot of the cast get side-tracked later on in favour of the Big Three of Seven, the Doctor and Janeway and when that happened the other main characters did become dull.

In terms of character chemistry I think my list does like this:

1. DS9
2. TOS
3. Voyager
4. TNG (I love the show, but other than Picard and Data the characters were sort of meh.)
5. Enterprise

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Voyager crew had the best chemistry, IMO, hands down. No other crews can touch them. None.

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Voyager crew had the best chemistry, IMO, hands down. No other crews can touch them. None.

On what do you base that on? I mean, what constitutes chemistry to you? How are the other casts different? Please be specific. I get that things are subjective, but I'm trying to understand your perspective.

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm having some difficulty with one of Godben's criteria, in that he deducts amounts if the episode "could" have been done on Next Generation. It doesn't matter "if it could" have been done on Next Generation, it wasn't, Next Generation was over as a series and the episode couldn't have been done anywhere but Voyager. You need to rethink that if you are trying to be fair because it looks like you are building in failure.

An awful lot of the episodes on Next Generation, especially during the first season "could have been done" on the Original Series and in fact two of those episodes "The Child" and "Devil's Due" were actually written for the Original Series relaunch, which didn't come off. In other words they started out as Original Series episodes.

Voyager characters were not dull; the cast had the best chemistry in all of the series. Now you as an individual may not have clicked with certain characters, but that doesn't mean that they didn't click with other people.

Brit

Not to speak for GodBen by anymeans but here is my interpretation...

There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager. TNG was about the Federation's flagship casually cruising around the Alpha Quadrant, doing stuff and following Starfleet officers doing exactly what they signed up for. Voyager was about two distinct crews thrown 70,000 light years away from home against their will, alone and with limited resources trying to get home through an unknown part of space (hopefully in less than 75 years).

So what does that mean...any episode of Voyager that is simply about a crew casually exploring space, putting the ship in danger for the sake of studying the nearest nebula or anomaly of the week, and not touching on Voyager's unique circumstances is a TNG lite episode. In essence, it is an episode that is not true to Voyager's distinct premise. For instance, I consider Equinox to be one of Voyager's better efforts. The story is unique and based on an idea that these ships and crews are TOTALLY ALONE and struggling to get home. Its one of the few real episodes that genuinely acknowledges the series potential. Truth be told, I personally would have rather followed the story of the Equinox simply because it looked like they had a much more interesting and harrowing voyage. Year of Hell is another episode that fits Voyager's premise.

Once the show completely abandoned the whole notion of limited resources the last component of the original premise evaporated.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.

There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.

There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.

Except there are episodes which crop up on Voyager which feel almost exactly like the sort of things they did on TNG. Not every episode by any means, so far I would only regard 20-25% of the episodes as the sort that could easily have been done on TNG, but it does happen and when it happens I will mark it down.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.

There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.

Except there are episodes which crop up on Voyager which feel almost exactly like the sort of things they did on TNG. Not every episode by any means, so far I would only regard 20-25% of the episodes as the sort that could easily have been done on TNG, but it does happen and when it happens I will mark it down.

You can do whatever you want. This is your review thread.

I'm just saying that all this comparison is getting a little ridiculous and even old. How much similarities were between DS9 and Babylon 5, for instance? And if there were, did that in any way ruin what was in DS9? I seriously doubt it, even if they were two extremely similar settings. But with two different space stations, different commanders, different crews and therefore unique episodes no matter how similar themes they had.

 

[Brit]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Voyager crew had the best chemistry, IMO, hands down. No other crews can touch them. None.

On what do you base that on? I mean, what constitutes chemistry to you? How are the other casts different? Please be specific. I get that things are subjective, but I'm trying to understand your perspective.

We base that on the relationships between the characters. Those of us that are big Voyager fans realized that the show was character driven and not particularly plot driven. Now there is nothing wrong with either way but if you tastes run to plot driven then chances are you don't care for Voyager as much as other shows. Conversely if you like character driven episodes then Voyager was good for you.

DS9 was actually plot driven with its big story arcs, some people loved that. Some of us love Voyager's characters. It's just different tastes.

Brit

 

[joyofvgr]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.

There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.

Except there are episodes which crop up on Voyager which feel almost exactly like the sort of things they did on TNG. Not every episode by any means, so far I would only regard 20-25% of the episodes as the sort that could easily have been done on TNG, but it does happen and when it happens I will mark it down.

I think Voyager did feel a lot like TNG, especially after season 4. However, I loved the Voyager characters so much more and found the episodes far more entertaining.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I like TNG and it's characters but I like the Voyager characters and the inter-action between them even more.

I don't think that Voyager was or became a blatant copy of TNG but there were some similarities here and there, especially in the later seasons when I get an impression that those in charge of the show tried to "play safe" in order to get more viewers, sort of "we bring in the Borg because the fans love TNG and the Borg" and "we bring in some TNG characters because the fans love TNG". They were always concerned over the fact that neither Voyager nor DS9 had the same ratings as TNG. But they should have realized that spin-offs seldom get as much viewers as the original (I'm not counting TOS here since it was made so many years before TNG, DS9 and Voyager).

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

We base that on the relationships between the characters. Those of us that are big Voyager fans realized that the show was character driven and not particularly plot driven. Now there is nothing wrong with either way but if you tastes run to plot driven then chances are you don't care for Voyager as much as other shows. Conversely if you like character driven episodes then Voyager was good for you.

DS9 was actually plot driven with its big story arcs, some people loved that. Some of us love Voyager's characters. It's just different tastes.

While I understand where you are coming from I think that DS9 was as much a character show as it was a plot driven show. The fact is that a lot of the plot on DS9 stemmed from character decisions, such as Damar rebelling against the Dominion or Sisko lying to the Romulans in order to get them to join the war. I've just skimmed the episode list for DS9's final three seasons (which were the most "plot" based), and most of those episodes have a character based core. I am strongly of the opinion that DS9 was the most character based Trek series.

But as always, to each their own.


Deathwish (***)

This episode just laid it on a little too thickly in the first three acts for my taste. They go back to the big bang, the ship shrinks, they become a Christmas tree ornament, Riker shows up, Quinn saves Woodstock... it was all just too much. I'm also not a fan of Q showing up on Voyager in the first place; Q was Picard's nemesis, he shouldn't be showing up on Voyager just like I don't want Dukat showing up in the TNG movies. There was a time and a place for Q and it was called The Next Generation.

The bit where they visit a representation of the continuum was insightful and that rescues the episode somewhat. I can't imagine what it would be like to be immortal and to have done and seen everything I possibly could, and this episode brings up some good points about the pointlessness of being omnipotent. And how that feeds back into Q's realisation at the end of the episode that he was fighting for the wrong side is well done.

I'm a left-wing libertarian (if such a thing is possible) so I am strongly of the opinion that individuals have the right to do as they wish, especially choosing the time of their death. I just wish I didn't have to sit through three acts of sickly dessert before we got to the meat of the issue.

 

[Robotech Master]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I sort of feel that way about the various Trek shows too.

That they should be different enough to actually justify the making of a new series. If they are just churning out the same old stuff then it starts to feel more like they are milking a cash cow and less like a creative, unique opportunity to write interesting stories.

But, to be fair, the other Trek shows had that problem too.

TNG's 1st season was too much like TOS (done badly) and so it was despised. DS9's 1st felt very much like an average season of TNG (Vash, Q, Duras sisters, Lwaxana Troi, anomalies of the week) and it was also the weakest season of the show in my opinion.

Voyager, far too often, felt like TNG in the Delta Quadrant. It could have been SO much MORE. That is what makes it disappointing for me.

Like it or hate it, DS9 broke some real ground. Developing a full main cast plus a dozen recurring characters? Multiple, interconnected story arcs? A deep look at religion, politics, war, and corruption in and out of the Federation? Real character conflict and real, adult character relationships?

The Voyager writers were given a guaranteed 7 years to explore any sort of stories they wanted. They didn't have to worry about cancellation. They could have done so many interesting things! Any writing team would be blessed to have such a playground!

But instead we got more Q. More Borg. More anomalies. More holodeck stories. Why?
As someone said above, I think I would rather have watched the adventures of the starship Equinox for 5 or 6 years. It seemed like they had a far more interesting time in the DQ.

However, Voyager did have some good standalone episodes. I'll give them that.

I did like Deathwish (though that should have been the last we saw of Q). Dreadnought's plot was a litte tough for me to swallow, but it had some good 'Lanna moments.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

We base that on the relationships between the characters. Those of us that are big Voyager fans realized that the show was character driven and not particularly plot driven.

Brit

What? Most of the characters are the same at the end as they are at the start (expect for Janeway who seems to have three characters but I digress) - if people consider this to be character driven story-telling... yowza!

If we are saying that DS9 is the plot driven show - why is it that they found time to develop the characters?

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.

There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.

What arc?

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

We base that on the relationships between the characters. Those of us that are big Voyager fans realized that the show was character driven and not particularly plot driven.

Brit

What? Most of the characters are the same at the end as they are at the start (expect for Janeway who seems to have three characters but I digress) - if people consider this to be character driven story-telling... yowza!

If we are saying that DS9 is the plot driven show - why is it that they found time to develop the characters?

This is actually a good point and it shows how some voyager fans confuse the difference between character and plot driven stories. DS9 was a character driven show. The bulk of the stories were about the crew and the people they knew and met in the neighborhood. There is a reason that some detractors called it a soap opera. The show did many things right, but it was at its best when it came to character development. The people that you are introduced to in Emissary are very different folks in What you Leave Behind. Thats because character driven stories generally require them to change and grow or evolve over time.

Voyager, conversely, was ALL plot with very little character development. After seven years, you knew more about Nog and Garrak than than you did of Tom Paris, Chakotay, Tuvok and certainly Harry Kim. Even fans of the show admit that the writers dropped the ball on many characters. On DS9, the characters determined the direction of the story. On Voyager, the plot determines the actions of the characters. When people talk about Janeway being written inconsistently, this is exactly what they are talking about.