A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[Octavia]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

btw, i'm just wondering where trek fans draw the line in suspending belief for many of the scientific (pseudo-scientific?) topics that are presented from physics to chemistry to biology? it's seems very haphazard.

For me the evolution mistakes are worse, primarily because there's so much trouble getting people to understand and accept evolution in real life. Bad enough to believe in Bible Genesis - worse to watch Trek Genesis and come away with an even dumber idea of what evolution really is about.

 

[StarryEyed]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

My biggest problem with Threshold isn't the salamander thing - as ridiculous as that is - it's the absurdity of Tom Paris developing such a propulsion system when the best minds in the Federation could not. Of course this was beaten later in Vis a Vis when Tom is able to repair an advanced alien warp drive - thanks to his knowledge of carburetors! I always thought that episode could easily be written off as a Tom Paris holo-novel and maybe the same case could be made for this abomination.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm not suggesting they throw their principles out the window; I'm just suggesting they take a sharpie and a highlighter to the rulebook and figure out exactly where they all stand. It's something that should have happened at the very beginning of the series. This was a good opportunity to fix not having done that.

Agreed. I don't want Janeway to turn into the evil Janeway seen in Living Witness, but an acknowledgement that the rule book doesn't apply out in the DQ would have been welcome. Alliances was a good episode which ended with completely the wrong message.

I agree with most of your reviews thus far, GodBen. By the way, did you use to run a Transformers site? Or am I thinking of someone else?

I can barely manage a thread, I'd fail miserably if I tried to run a whole website. I am normally called either GodBen or TheGodBen on websites, but I am not the GodBen you are looking for.

Oh come now. Tom Paris coughing up his tongue has to be worth at least half a star for sheer gross-out value.

I'll be honest, I did consider that, but in the end I found this episode so insulting to my intelligence that I just couldn't give it any points. If I go to a restaurant where the food is horrible, I have to wait 2 hours for the food and the waiter spits on me at every opportunity, I cannot recommend it because the hand-dryer in the men's room worked well.

At least it's better than downright bad and insulting episodes as "The Gift" and "Fury".

I know you like Kes and all, but while those episodes may have been bad for her character, Threshold was audio-visual diarrhoea. For me it is the worst episode of Star Trek ever made.

i look at this one as having very little difference than "genesis" and yet it gets more derision. now, i understand the biology problems since i am heavily involved with the sciences. but, unlike "genesis" there was a character-building moment for one of the characters.

Genesis was really bad, and the science was almost as bad as Threshold, but the story that episode told was at least slightly interesting. Picard and Data being chased on a dark ship is better than Tom in sickbay doing really gross things. I'd give it 1 star.

For me the evolution mistakes are worse, primarily because there's so much trouble getting people to understand and accept evolution in real life. Bad enough to believe in Bible Genesis - worse to watch Trek Genesis and come away with an even dumber idea of what evolution really is about.

This is my big problem too. Evolution is not difficult to understand when explained correctly and the idea that an educated person working on a science fiction series could so completely fuck it up is unbelievable.

 

[apenpaap]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

How can you give Threshold 0 stars? It deserves much, much less. There is a very funny recap of the episode on The Agony Booth, btw: here.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

How can you give Threshold 0 stars? It deserves much, much less. There is a very funny recap of the episode on The Agony Booth, btw: here.

I considered giving it minus five stars, but that would have messed up the graph when I get to the season recap. Zero will just have to do.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Meld (****½)

It is hard to believe that this episode is in the same series as Threshold, but the idea that it is the very next episode is astonishing. A fascinating exploration of Tuvok and the mind of a serial killer, this episode also deals with one of the issues I wanted explored on this series; what exactly happens to criminals aboard a ship stranded 70 years from home.

Tuvok hasn't stood out for me as a character yet and this episode shows me just how great he can be, as well as how good an actor Tim Russ is. Another great aspect of this episode is Suder who isn't just some evil serial killer, he is clearly psychotic but he also seems like a nice guy... a nice guy who would be willing to bludgeon you with a metal bar if you met him at the wrong time. Strangely believable. In the beginning I feared this would be a typical investigation episode, but only 10 minutes in the murder is solved and Suder is very frank in his confession. Good stuff.

There is also a b-story involving Paris running a betting pool which doesn't really mesh that well with the Tuvok story, but I know that this was part of a hidden arc which leads to Paris leaving the crew so I can forgive this because it shows the producers were planning ahead.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Agreed. A great episode with great performances from Tim Russ and Brad Dourif, and a very topical one that flows nicely from the premise.

 

[Robotech Master]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Too bad they killed him off the next time he appeared. He could have shaken things up as a recurring character.

For that matter, why couldn't they have kept Kes and Seven? Was it a budget issue?

On DS9 they added Worf to the cast in season 4 without removing any other cast member, and they were also able to develop at least dozen recurring characters too.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

For that matter, why couldn't they have kept Kes and Seven? Was it a budget issue?

Rumours abound. The consensus is that it was a budget issue, they were considering firing Garrett Wang but then he showed up in a list of sexiest men on television so they decided to keep him and get rid of Kes.

This topic sometimes leads to controversy, best avoid it in this thread, at least until I get to the fourth season.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yeah, save that for when the time comes.

 

[StarryEyed]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Suder was definitely one of Voyager's better characters. It makes sense that you would get dangerous misfits like him in an organization like the Marquis.

I like the fact that we got another example of Vulcan limitations here too. They're portrayed as flawless supermen far too often.

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Too bad they killed him off the next time he appeared. He could have shaken things up as a recurring character.

For that matter, why couldn't they have kept Kes and Seven? Was it a budget issue?

On DS9 they added Worf to the cast in season 4 without removing any other cast member, and they were also able to develop at least dozen recurring characters too.

Simply put, the writers on Voyager just weren't that talented. They could not properly cover the cast they had. had Kes stayed, she would have probably ended up hanging out with Chakotay.

I suspect that the other reason is that the folks on DS9 were perfectly content with the cast they had. In fact they were somewhat annoyed that they were forced to go off on the Klingon tangent in order to accommodate Worf (remember, an edict came down from TPTB to include a character from TNG). The DS9 writers and show runners had no problem writing for their cast and actually liked their characters. I suspect that they would have been less than pleased had they been forced to give someone the ax.

 

[JustKate]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I heard it was a budget decision - it's been said many times by many different people, some of whom have even quoted sources. I don't really think the Voyager writers enjoyed writing anybody off the show, either.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

They should have just removed Neelix, nearly everybody hated him anyway. Kes hasn't really stood out for me so far, but Neelix has stood out for all the wrong reasons. The guy isn't so bad when an episode focuses on him, but when he just given one scene in an episode to justify him being on the main cast he comes across as being incredibly obnoxious.

One really good thing about Meld; the scene where Tuvok snaps Neelix's neck in the holodeck. I have never wanted a holodeck more in my life.

Edit: Yes, 1000th post! I finally outrank all you other captains!

 

[JustKate]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ I wondered about that, too. While I know there are people who like Neelix, I find it hard to imagine he was more popular (or perhaps less unpopular) than Kes or Harry, who were the ones the producers supposedly chose between when they had to "make room" for another cast member.

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ I wondered about that, too. While I know there are people who like Neelix, I find it hard to imagine he was more popular (or perhaps less unpopular) than Kes or Harry, who were the ones the producers supposedly chose between when they had to "make room" for another cast member.

The presence of Nelix helped to sell the idea that Voyager was a "family" show. He was the commic relief and the person in charge of interacting with children.

 

[StarryEyed]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

He was also played by a much better actor than Wang or Lien.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ I wondered about that, too. While I know there are people who like Neelix, I find it hard to imagine he was more popular (or perhaps less unpopular) than Kes or Harry, who were the ones the producers supposedly chose between when they had to "make room" for another cast member.

The fact is that Neelix was the most hated character in the series at the time for the "changes in season 4". There were a lot of hate aimed at him on many forums, actually it could be compared to the hatred against Wesley Crusher. It's actually in later years that Neelix has been more accepted even if some fans still dislike him. I happen to be one of those who actually like the character!

Otherwise it was Janeway and Paris who got most criticizm, there were some tough debates between those who didn't like Janeway and those who did like the her. The Janeway fans were in a clear majority. I also remember that some people found Paris annoying. Those three were the characters who got the most criticizm at that time, the others were mostly accepted and there weren't that much debate about them, some fan found someone boring or good, another fan found another character boring or good.

As for "Meld", it's an excellent episode. The interaction between Tuvok and Suder is superb and Suder is an interesting character. Another of my Top 20 favorites.

I'll give it 5 points out of 5.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

He was also played by a much better actor than Wang or Lien.

I have to disagree with "much better". Phillips is agreat actor who did an excellent work with the Neelix role but I could say the same about Lien as well. As for Wang, I haven't seen him in any other role than Harry Kim and it's hard to judge his acting skills on that.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Dreadnought (**½)

This is okay stuff, nothing special. The missile is far too advanced compared to Cardassian technology we have seen up until this point, and the fact that B'Elanna spent all this time programming in various probabilities that the missile should know how to react to without Chakotay finding out is completely out there when it comes to suspending disbelief. I'm surprised she didn't program in a probability that the missile would get pulled into the DQ considering everything else she programmed into it.

Then there is the alien first minister who says to Janeway "You would risk your lives to save people you never heard of before two days ago?" Like I've never heard that being said before on Star Trek.

There is some nice stuff towards the end where Janeway evacuates the ship and prepares to sacrifice herself. This helps to make up for how badly she was written in Prototype.

They fired at least seven torpedoes in this episode. It seems the rationing is over.

Torpedoes: 11/38