I found out that the US government was right all along and that I'm not really human in the episode "Tattoo."
I consider it a classic, also, but likely not in the manner you mean.
A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager
- Thread starter TheGodBen
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I found out that the US government was right all along and that I'm not really human in the episode "Tattoo."
I consider it a classic, also, but likely not in the manner you mean.
They never said the Native Americans weren't human, they said their myths were inspired by DQ aliens who visited Earth.
As for the Dinosaurs, the theory is either that some of them were taken by the Preservers and planted on a DQ world where they continued to evolve, or a group of them survived the Great Impact and developed civilization after further millions of years of evolution into intelligent life.
Either, way both were alright stories.
As for the Dinosaurs, the theory is either that some of them were taken by the Preservers and planted on a DQ world where they continued to evolve, or a group of them survived the Great Impact and developed civilization after further millions of years of evolution into intelligent life.
Either, way both were alright stories.
No, the aliens said that they gave a genetic legacy to the Indians in order for them to prosper and thrive and have language.
I guess unlike other humans, we were unable to do all that for ourselves.
I consider it a classic because it's so stupid. Whenever I watch it I wonder how it was written and then made it all the way into production. Someone in should have said "Hey Native Americans have enough problems with poverty,alcoholism and sterotyping. Lets not add more by saying they met Aliens from 70,000 light years and aren't fully humans"
I kind of liked the dinosaur one (as far as I can remember - I haven't see it since it first ran), but then again, I rather liked "Spock's Brain." I have a weakness for cheese, you see.
I disliked "Tatoo" a whole, whole, whole bunch though. Aside from the Indians-can't-evolve-on-their-own thing, it was just a mess.
I disliked "Tatoo" a whole, whole, whole bunch though. Aside from the Indians-can't-evolve-on-their-own thing, it was just a mess.
I have four classifications for Trek episodes.
1: Good = An episode to catch anytime I can.
2: Bad = A terrible episode. No redeeming quality whatsoever.
3: Classic: An episode so bad/so stupid. I just HAVE TO watch. It's an episode that will insult my intelligence and force me to wonder. "Who the fuck paid money for this shit to be produced and what channel was dumb enough to pay for it?"
Lizard sex between Janeway and Paris,Dinosaurs from Earth living in DQ and Native Americans being aliens are classics for me.
I don't know why. But it's a torture to watch them and I love to sit down and watch it when ever it's on air.
Friends, clearly this is all a misunderstanding. I'm sure we can all agree... *erch*Well that's the last straw, this means war against the Voyager forum! Niners attack!!!
The Niner army will get here soon enough, and then you'll be sorry!
They sure are taking their time though.
TheGodBen 6 here, I'm replacing TheGodBen 5 who was not only volatile and aggressive, but he was also far uglier. I'm just generally better. 
How dare you separate it into two words! This means war!!!
Oh no, inherited genetic traits.
TheGodBen 5 never said that though, he only thought it would have been a dramatically interesting direction to go with the character.
It's all one word!
How dare you separate it into two words! This means war!!!Oh no, inherited genetic traits.
TheGodBen 6 here, I'm replacing TheGodBen 5 who was not only volatile and aggressive, but he was also far uglier. I'm just generally better.
TheGodBen 5 never said that though, he only thought it would have been a dramatically interesting direction to go with the character.
I disagree.
Is there no way someone can atone for previous crimes other than sacrificing herself?
Trek has always been about an *optimistic* view of the future.
\Atonement for what crimes?I never said that she committed any crimes, I talked about her attempts to regain her humanity. Not being human isn't a crime, which is a good thing because I'm part-donkey.
I think it's pretty well established that Seven was Borg, right?
So, whether or not you said she committed crimes against humanity, that's a part of her backstory. And another part of her story is that she lives with the guilt of that--whether or not it was her fault.
So, antonement is a huge part of her character arc.
TheGodBen, you don't seem to be getting anywhere with this debate. Maybe you should go talk to Worf again.
Too late, I executed Worf personally this morning. 
I've watched enough television to know that you have to kill the main characters as soon as you can or else they'll make a miraculous escape.
I've watched enough television to know that you have to kill the main characters as soon as you can or else they'll make a miraculous escape.I do think that Seven experienced guilt from the memories of what she did as a Borg, but I don't believe that she was guilty of any crimes because she was not in control of her body. But that's beside the point because I still never said that her death would serve as any form of atonement, I said it would serve to make her more human.
Too late, I executed Worf personally this morning.
I do think that Seven experienced guilt from the memories of what she did as a Borg, but I don't believe that she was guilty of any crimes because she was not in control of her body. But that's beside the point because I still never said that her death would serve as any form of atonement, I said it would serve to make her more human.
But since atonement was part of her arc, then her sacrificing herself would fit into that.
And I fail to see how she would be more human by sacrificing herself.
Too late, I executed Worf personally this morning.
Looks like someone's been reading the Evil Overlord List.
Read it? I wrote the bloody thing. 
As I said, this is subjective so there is no need for you to agree with me here, this is just how I view the world.
But the atonement and guilt Seven felt was a subset of her overriding arc, which was that she was reclaiming the humanity that was taken from her. Her desire to repair the damage she felt she had done as a drone was a sign she was becoming human, her becoming human was not a sign that she was trying to atone for things past. That was the arc which ran all the way from Scorpion up until Endgame, and I think her death could have been a good ending to that arc if it had been handled properly.
Well this is where we enter into the subjective philosophical area. What makes us human? It is my belief that what sets us apart from other animals is that we don't act mainly upon instinct, we rationalise our actions by analysing the situation and attempting to plot a course which will lead to the most positive result. And the most powerful instinct that animals, including ourselves, have is the instinct for self-preservation. If we can use rational thought to override the most powerful urge within us then we have proven ourselves to be worthy of the name "wise man". If we can make the choice to sacrifice ourselves in order to save hundreds of others then there can be no denying that we have evolved beyond our biological programming.
As I said, this is subjective so there is no need for you to agree with me here, this is just how I view the world.
Read it? I wrote the bloody thing.
But the atonement and guilt Seven felt was a subset of her overriding arc, which was that she was reclaiming the humanity that was taken from her. Her desire to repair the damage she felt she had done as a drone was a sign she was becoming human, her becoming human was not a sign that she was trying to atone for things past. That was the arc which ran all the way from Scorpion up until Endgame, and I think her death could have been a good ending to that arc if it had been handled properly.
Well this is where we enter into the subjective philosophical area. What makes us human? It is my belief that what sets us apart from other animals is that we don't act mainly upon instinct, we rationalise our actions by analysing the situation and attempting to plot a course which will lead to the most positive result. And the most powerful instinct that animals, including ourselves, have is the instinct for self-preservation. If we can use rational thought to override the most powerful urge within us then we have proven ourselves to be worthy of the name "wise man". If we can make the choice to sacrifice ourselves in order to save hundreds of others then there can be no denying that we have evolved beyond our biological programming.
As I said, this is subjective so there is no need for you to agree with me here, this is just how I view the world.
See what gets me with this as applicable to Seven is the sense that she--and only she--wouldn't be *really* human until she sacrifices herself.
Janeway doesn't have to sacrifice herself to prove her humanity. Nor does Kim, nor Paris, nor Torres...
Just Seven. Because she was violated as a child, in order to reclaim what she lost, she has to sacrifice herself.
Do you see why I think that *incredibly* cynical?
I don't think I buy what you're saying 100% teya, not because I'm an awkward git (which is true), but because I think you're not being entirely fair to Seven of Nine (and before anyone asks no, I'm not a mindless Jeri Ryan fan who watched Voyager for the T&A after she joined)...
Why do I say this? For 2 reasons...
1) "Crimes against humanity" - I don't think your pinning these onto Seven because she was a former member of the collective would stand up. She was assimilated against her will (because she was 6... it's hard enough to do something about it when you're 26 or 36 etc), and she acted, from that moment on, as a vessel for the collective's wishes. Watch Best of Both Worlds and listen to Picard explain how utterly destroying it was to have been Locutus and not be able to act under your own impulses and that should lend some weight. The point is, she is now free, and while she is technically a "human" character (irrelevant of species
) she is missing her "humanity" and needs to explore it. What you're saying is actually a more extreme argument than "as a citizen of the United Kingdom I am responsible for the actions my government took in Iraq." I have free will, which Seven didn't, and while I can object to what they're doing, in that particular case I had no control over it, as we saw by the fact the thousands of protesters against the war did not manage to prevent or revoke our involvement. Therefore when the list of regrettable things that happens over there is compiled I am saddened, but I don't feel culpable as an individual, and if that applies to me then I don't see why it can't be applied to her.
Which leads on to...
2) I sort of follow your logic on the "sacrifice to regain humanity" notion, but I see it as a little flawed. I don't think she has to die to atone for her sins, or those of the collective. She's Seven of Nine, not Jesus. She can save lives without having to die, and did on Voyager. If that doesn't make her human, or at least contribute majorly, then what does? How about her relationship with Chakotay and the ability to experience love? Or her friendship with the Doctor? Or her intellectual repartee with Tuvok?
I really think you've misjudged her!
[[Also... if we're now on TheGodBen 6 does this mean he's going to develop some kind of distrust for everything TheGodBen 1-5 believed in and switch sides?]]
Why do I say this? For 2 reasons...
1) "Crimes against humanity" - I don't think your pinning these onto Seven because she was a former member of the collective would stand up. She was assimilated against her will (because she was 6... it's hard enough to do something about it when you're 26 or 36 etc), and she acted, from that moment on, as a vessel for the collective's wishes. Watch Best of Both Worlds and listen to Picard explain how utterly destroying it was to have been Locutus and not be able to act under your own impulses and that should lend some weight. The point is, she is now free, and while she is technically a "human" character (irrelevant of species
) she is missing her "humanity" and needs to explore it. What you're saying is actually a more extreme argument than "as a citizen of the United Kingdom I am responsible for the actions my government took in Iraq." I have free will, which Seven didn't, and while I can object to what they're doing, in that particular case I had no control over it, as we saw by the fact the thousands of protesters against the war did not manage to prevent or revoke our involvement. Therefore when the list of regrettable things that happens over there is compiled I am saddened, but I don't feel culpable as an individual, and if that applies to me then I don't see why it can't be applied to her.Which leads on to...
2) I sort of follow your logic on the "sacrifice to regain humanity" notion, but I see it as a little flawed. I don't think she has to die to atone for her sins, or those of the collective. She's Seven of Nine, not Jesus. She can save lives without having to die, and did on Voyager. If that doesn't make her human, or at least contribute majorly, then what does? How about her relationship with Chakotay and the ability to experience love? Or her friendship with the Doctor? Or her intellectual repartee with Tuvok?
I really think you've misjudged her!
[[Also... if we're now on TheGodBen 6 does this mean he's going to develop some kind of distrust for everything TheGodBen 1-5 believed in and switch sides?]]
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