A problem with "The Cage"/"The Menagerie"

[MeanJoePhaser]

I was thinking about this recently.

Vina: "They had no idea what a human looked liked."

Uh...THEY CAN READ MINDS!

And they are humanoids themselves. It's not like it would hard to figure out.

So what the hell? Were they bad reconstructive surgeons or was Vina really, really a mess?

 

[Nerys Myk]

shhhush!

I'm gonna assume its the internal stuff, they couldn't get right.

 

[Shaw]

Uh...THEY CAN READ MINDS!

I would hope that given her condition that she wasn't awake enough during any of that reconstruction for anyone to read her mind.

From her point of view I would guess (and had always assumed) that one moment her ship is crashing and the next she wakes up in relatively one piece... after that she lives the illusion of her body's former (mid-20s) condition even as she ages.

Beyond the obvious problem of attempting to get all her parts together well enough to work correctly (knowing that they most likely had little choice for spares except from the rest of her crew), by the time of the episode she was nearly 20 years older than Pike (in contrast to the illusion of her being 10 years younger). Which would have added an incentive for her wanting to stay.

But the point of the line was that they were "learning while doing" in reassembling something without a guide and with parts that are torn and broken doesn't always yield the best results... specially if there is time pressure to keep that thing alive.

So I don't think this really qualifies as a problem with The Cage. The writers were able to convey to a majority of the audience what they wanted to.

 

[Kryton]

And NBC turned it down 'cause it was "too cerebral".

Without having to dig for allegory, the line would have made more sense had the keepers looked more like the Horta.

 

[gomtuu20]

They should've just gone to imbd and seen what Susan Oliver looked like.

 

[Green Shirt]

They should've just gone to imbd and seen what Susan Oliver looked like.

Except that for most entries, it says "photo not available".

 

[Christopher]

I was thinking about this recently.

Vina: "They had no idea what a human looked liked."

Uh...THEY CAN READ MINDS!

And they are humanoids themselves. It's not like it would hard to figure out.

Reading minds would only help if the mind they were reading were that of a surgeon. Just because you know what a human body looks like doesn't mean you could perform competent reconstructive surgery to achieve that apperance. I mean, I know what a human body looks like, and I can draw one reasonably well for an amateur, but I can't mold one out of clay because I've never studied sculpting. And surgery is a good deal more complicated.

 

[Basil]

That's a very good answer, Christopher, and an acceptable one, though I still think the OP was on to something with a glitch in thinking few if any of us even stopped to consider all these years. I mean, the Talosians were super advanced, could probe her mind for what humans looked like (which negates her line somewhat about never having seen a human before), and this was the very best they could do? My hat is off to Mean Joe Phaser for the observation.

 

[Vance]

It didn't seem to me that they could read too much, aside from surface thoughts and emotions, and only then if there isn't a lot of basic 'powerful' emotions and impuetus in play.

I think that Vina's "Am I dying? The PAIN!" moments would screen any attempt to deeply probe her mind while trying to put her back together. AFTER , of course, they realized their errors and just gave her the illusion of beauty once her mind had calmed.

Easy enough.

 

[Timo]

I don't see how the Talosians could get Vina's external looks right if they lacked the skill to arrange her interiors the right way up. The incorrect internal assembly would necessarily show on the surface, even if Vina had a perfectly good idea of what her face should look like.

One wonders how many other survivors there were to the crash, just not to the well-intentioned Talosian reconstructive surgery...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Depending on what education Vina had, if she even ever saw a picture of internal human anatomy, the Talosians would be able to extract it.

These were beings capable of extending their illusions over vast distances of space, to convince Kirk and everyone on the Enterprise that Commodore Mendez was there, even though he wasn't!

I'll give Vance that Vina's strong emotions of pain, etc...affected the Talosians, since strong negative emotions were stated to do so in the episode(s).

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

those crazy aliens assumed that other humanoids would not have any sort of symmetry to their body thus all the crazy bulges and mangles

 

[Timo]

As said, it doesn't help to sculpt the exterior in an aesthetically pleasing manner if the innards are all messed up. it won't hold its nice, symmetric shape for long.

And a "picture of human anatomy" would hardly help, if the issue was one of rebuilding a kidney or a liver. A perfectly memorized 600-page textbook might not be nearly enough, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Herbert1]

I don't have a problem with it. Vina's broken and mangled body was discovered in the wreckage of the S.S. Columbia dying. She could have been in a coma. Perhaps the Talosians could not read a mind if the individual was in a comatose or unconscious state? They might not have been able to extract her memories of human anatomy and biology classes she attended. Presuming that she attended human anatomy and biology classes and payed attention. Or even extract information of how she appeared in youth and in health.

Plus knowing what something is supposed to look like on the outside doesn't mean that you have knowledge of the internal components or their correct arrangement.

I presume that the Talosians could only make a best guess. Further, her body could have been too badly mangled by the crash and they were not able to restore her to her previous appearance even if they had indepth knowledge of human biology and anatomy.

 

[TIN_MAN]

I read in the star trek compendium that originaly, the Talosians were invisioned as much more alien, like giant crab creatures, so maybe this line was left over from an earlier script? And did you ever stop to consider that maybe the Talosian's huminoid appearance could also be an illusion?

 

[Neopeius]

I read in the star trek compendium that originaly, the Talosians were invisioned as much more alien, like giant crab creatures, so maybe this line was left over from an earlier script? And did you ever stop to consider that maybe the Talosian's huminoid appearance could also be an illusion?

It's unfortunate Vina was such a Mike Judge fan. They apparently chose their skull form from her memories.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Apparently the SS Columbia's computer systems were also out of action, such that the Talosians couldn't get any information from *them*.

And not even one Sports Illustrated swimsuit calendar either!

 

[Nebusj]

Apparently the SS Columbia's computer systems were also out of action, such that the Talosians couldn't get any information from *them*.

If they could get anything useful out of Columbia's computers there'd not have been the need to scan the Enterprise's records before determining that, somehow, humans couldn't be adapted to serfdom.

Also, really, why should the Talosians worry excessively about outward appearances given that they can make a perfectly credible one for any person not suffering an intense emotion at the moment? Keeping Vina alive was the important thing; making her attractive would be like painting the Titanic after you patch the hull.

 

[Timo]

Also, ultimately we have to decide how far we can trust the statements of these evil little slavers.

The superficial impression is that the crash of the Columbia was an accident, and the saving of Vina an act of mercy. However, the Talosians do maintain an underground menagerie of captives, and we never quite learn whether the other cages hold prisoners that are conceptually different from Pike. Last surviving native lifeforms of the planet - or captives from other crashes, found unsuited for the slave labor program?

It would make sense for the Talosians to use their powers of illusion to lure in numerous spacecraft and then try to find breeding pairs amongst the wreckage. But the Talosians are self-admitted klutzes, unaccustomed to and unskilled in any physical work, and thus the survival rate of their captives might be abysmally low. We can speculate on whether Vina really was the victim of an honest accident but subsequently became their inspiration for a slave-hunting program, or whether she was just victim #34 in the ongoing program.

Thus, we can also speculate on whether Vina's tortured form was any more true than her beautiful shape. Perhaps the Talosians faked an old cripple so that they wouldn't have to give up 25% of their human captive program, even though circumstances forced letting go of the recently acquired 75%?

Timo Saloniemi