Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by The Overlord, Feb 19, 2013.
Whatever these assholes get will never be enough.
So true. We can only kill them once, and that's if the country they're hiding in has the death penalty.
The alternative being them dying in prison, which will happen soon enough given that they're both older than dirt.
Chakotay was a classic example of a character who looked good on paper, but didn't work so well in a pragmatic sense. In part because of the perceived need to make Janeway near-infallible.
No worse than Kirk.
And she wasn't infallible, its just that no one called her on her shit, or recognised how morally bankrupt she was.
Not to mention the issue of Jamake Highwater a.k.a the fake Native American con man they hired as a consultant.
It gets worse because Beltrane knew he was full of it [having at least a cursory knowledge of RL Native Americans] and loudly said so, explaining in part why he came to dislike his own character.
There's an alternate universe where Chakotay belonged to a RL tribe and with RL accurate information about their practices. And wasn't revealed to have gotten his religion from white aliens.
Less "morally bankrupt" than "morally inconsistent". One minute she's highly moral, the next she's splitting Tuvix, torturing an Equinox crew member, and making a kamikaze run at twin pulsars.
Can you imagine if Bujold had lasted awhile longer before bowing out, so they couldn't replace the actress, only kill her off? Star Trek's "first Native American captain" would have been based on some gringo pseudo-tribal balderdash.
Before and After.
Captain Chakotay was cooking with gas.
I agree here. The Maquis crew on Voyager, even people like Torres, Seska, Suder and Jonas realized that Voyager was their best way to come home. They also had enough respect of Chakotay to not oppose his decision in that case.
Sloppy writing was a problem for the series during its whole existence.
This is the real tragedy of Voyager. The series had so much potential, only to be ruined by a bunch of TNG fanatics. If Ron Morre and the others had had their way, Voyager could have been a completly unique series, just like DS9 was but still completly different from both DS9 and TNG.
In fact, people like Berman, Braga and jeri taylor should never have been involved with Voyager. They did a great job with TNG and I must admit that they did some good things for Voyager too, at least in the beginning of the series but in the long run heir presence were devastating for the series.
Chakotay was a great character, at least in the first three seasons before bad writing ruined the character. I can understand why Beltran was so frustrated.
That makes it even worse. If the "writers" and "producers" had listened to Beltran instead of that con man, Chakotay would have become a better and more realistic character. But those ***holes were so full of themselves that they couldn't even listen to someone they just saw as a subordinate and potential lapdog.
Chakotay is a caricature. If he was French he'd wear a beret all the time and couldn't talk of anything except camembert, French wine, and baguettes...
Hardly. There were a number of occasions that Chakotay disagreed with Janeway on her decision making and where he suggested courses of action that were arguably more in line with Starfleet and UFP ideals and principles.
She also relieved Chakotay of his duties on at least two occasions. Well, the Scorpion one doesn't really count necessarily because that was part of Janways' and Chakotay ploy to thward 7 of 9 trying to assimilate the ship, although they DID have a bit of a problem there.
Second time was during the Equinox events... this one was far more 'palatable'.
Janeway wasn't near-infallible. She made mistakes. But also, as a captain, she probably had more experience than Chakotay to arrive at better decisions than he could which fit their situation in the D.Q. on more occasions than not (just as Chakotay had suggestions for Janeway which she had to take under advisement and also implement to help them survive in the D.Q. - for example when he suggested an alliance with the Kazon - and to be fair implementation of some Maqui tactics).
And on multiple burners. In many ways, I liked the B&A timeline better than the one we got. Doc had a name, Neelix got a uniform, people got promoted, everyone was happy. Well, almost everyone.
It can even be argued that that was the "original" timeline, and got disrupted by Kes's foreknowledge of the future.
That's true. But there's a difference between an alliance of convenience and eating out of your captain's hand within a year. Which most of the Maquis pretty much did. At least Seska didn't drink the "Janeway is awesome" koolaid.
Amen to that. The worst thing is how easily some of the worst inconsistencies could have been fixed.
And maybe more effectively used.
Instead of drinking Earl Grey and speaking with a British accent? (sorry, couldn't resist)
Somethings are simply what they are. One can "get caught up in the narrative" and enjoy the episode, or not. In the end, it's the individual viewer who decides for themselves.
If I didn't enjoy Trek, including Voyager, I wouldn't watch it. And, I'm completely tolerant of crazy promises ("Tuvix", anyone?) if they make good story. Also, I'm usually tolerant of inconsistencies that occur for narrative's sake. For instance, I don't have much of a problem with Riker. Yes, he was a fiercely ambitious young officer who decided to do a tour on the flagship to set himself on a full impulse trip toward admiral braid. Until... he wasn't. But that was necessary to keep two well-liked characters on the show.
However, that doesn't mean I'm going to be Ok with any inconsistency. Especially ones that could have been easily fixed with minimal effort and no real changes in any episode.
This is like me asking why you are in the VOY forum, when clearly you feel DS9 is superior in all aspects, if all you want to do is piss on VOY, it's captain, and it's fans. Kind of defeats the point of having a discussion if everyone agrees all of the time. "Janeway was awful. She was the worst. What a horrible character. What a terrible actress. Her voice, ugh! I agree!" Yeah, that sounds like a great thread.
I suggest you drop the exaggerated indignation you've displayed in this thread STEPhon IT and also stop telling people to move on.
I find it a bit grating that Picard is supposed to be such a proud French man when all he talks about is Shakespeare when the French have a slew of playwrights that are more than a match for him: Racine, Corneille, Marivaux, Moliere... to name a few.
In a way, yes if you refer to the fantasy tribe he is supposed to belong to.
But not worse than some other non-American characters in certain series like Picard, Kim and sometimes even old Scotty.
The only positive thing with the sloppy writing and all the inconsistencies in the series is that it gave me inspiration to create the Voyager mysteries-and how to solve them page on the Kes Website.
Read it, and like it a lot. It certainly provides explanations for some of Voyager's more annoying aspects.
No, I think TNG is superior in all aspects and VOY was the wannabe but I gave examples to support my argument but the members I pointed out had nothing to include. I didn't create the thread but I support its exploration of it.
I like your Kes website. Well, done!
Separate names with a comma.