A problem with Captain Janeway

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by The Overlord, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    The writing dictated how good... no how infallible the character was to be.
     
  2. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Honestly, the Maqui resistance became sort of pointless the moment they were stranded in the D.Q.
    When you think about it, the Maqui are basically former UFP citizens who had a cause to fight in the A.Q. That cause became moot when they became stranded.

    As for people deferring to Janeway because she's a woman... not necessarily.
    How many people challenged Picard's authority for example?
    While I agree that the tension between SF and Maqui crew was dropped too soon, overall, that story didn't have far to go.
    They all come from same/similar background (UFP) - except for Seska of course... and for UFP, SF is a defensive and exploratory arm.

    In regards to Chakotay and other Maqui falling in line behind Janeway too soon or worshipping her... I don't think that's the case - but there's also a precedent for it (because the Maqui are ex UFP citizens).

    I'm just not sure what people were expecting?
    That the Maqui would form a rebellion against a majority of fully trained SF crew who were literally in the same boat as they were?
    I think part of the reason Maqui fell faster in line was because they were still former UFP citizens and partly because they were outnumbered and didn't really have their own ship to fall back to - plus, Tuvok was probably keeping an extra eye on them.

    Torres didn't start worshipping Janeway right away... in fact I didn't really see Torres worshipping Janeway in any way.
    Torres may have been a 'terrorist' but she also went to SF academy for a few years before dropping out, and to be fair, she wasn't necessarily given a proper chance at the Academy. Janeway did (obviously after Chatoay bent Janeways perceptions a bit too due to overall circumstances).
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  3. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

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    We can see that in course oblivion where alt Janeway follow a course of action that is downright insane and yet the crew barely say anything... the only one who grumbles audibly is Tom Paris.
     
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  4. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    I know the answer. It's called conflict and not Gilligan's Island the drama series. I doubt the showrunners would've neutered the stakes if a man was sitting in the center chair, I could imagine the drama the great Patrick Stewart would've produced if he was the lead of Voyager. Picard had conflict not with his crew but with opposing and powerful factions, and I believe it was him in the role, Chakotay and him would be butting heads! And if Voyagers would take off their rose colored glasses for a minute, the Maquis were established as terrorists and very clever and dangerous, even to their own despite the crap that was later established with the Michael Eddington versions.

    Kira in her past may have been a resistance fighter but even she had to come around to realizing she was a terrorist and many innocent people will die because of her cause. This kind of thinking just doesn't change in a heartbeat second like the crap done with GOAT Janeway. With DS9 these changes take a lot of time especially where they're in an area where the rules should be rewritten day by day; as like DS9's first 3 seasons it should never be a picnic because every episode should be a reminder that Bajorans are transitioning. They are not there yet.

    I wanted the Maquis to show how unpredictable and how dangerous it could be to have a terrorist as the first officer and the chief of engineering. I know I keep comparing the situation to DS9 but there's a moment in the ep, "The Defiant" where Kira openly shared her horrifying idea to Thomas Riker if she had in possession of the Defiant when she a terrorist. It was something which should've been a constant storyline for Voyager which they would never cross because it would tarnish the symbol.
     
  5. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Actually, it had less to do with Janeway being a woman, and more to do with the producers having Maqui putting on SF uniforms by the end of the pilot.
    At that point, any potential storytelling for 'conflict' was over and essentially flew out the window.

    Interesting that you'd bring Kira and Ds9 into it... considering the fact she ended up working for Sisko and the UFP essentially (which she really didn't like), and ended up 'falling in line' rather quickly herself.
    Don't make Ds9 an exception of some kind, because it really wasn't.
    All it did was expand on the Maqui storyline because it had the grounds to do so (they were in the A.Q. along with the Cardassians).

    Eh, while they were labeled 'terrorists', they were still ex UFP citizens whose primary target were the Cardassians. You don't erase a proverbial lifetime of UFP citizenship with a few years of being in the Maqui.
    And also, the situation with Kira doesn't apply to the Maqui on Voyager.

    They had no cause to fight for in the Delta Quadrant. They also had an inferior ship (the raider they were pulled in with). Chakotay reached a level of Commander in Starfleet before joining the Maqui - so he led those on that raider, probably in a more SF style to better organise them.

    And most previous interactions between Maqui and SF were relatively mild. Neither one wanted to hurt the other despite the 'terrorist' label.
    Also, when Eddington took charge, that's when the stakes got higher (but Voyager and the Maqui on the raider were already long gone by then).
     
  6. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    The producers did not want GOAT Janeway to have such conflicts with the Maquis; while the series went on having her battle spaceships three times Voyager's size and she can make deals with the Borg in their space. Hey, I get it, your show was a masterpiece, the greatest Star Trek series ever and so was her captain.

    My point was it took time for Sisko and Kira to gel, in the beginning they butted heads even at times Sisko had to yield. There wasn't the kind of conflict I would expect in a situation like VOY. If you don't get it, we're done.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  7. Captain_Nick

    Captain_Nick Vice Admiral Admiral

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    God I wish people would stop abusing 'mary sue'. Janeway is not a Mary Sue. She's not a poorly written protagonist that is only the author projecting themselves into the story to hook up with one of the other leads.

    I never got the vibe that Janeway was 'a woman captain'. She was just a captain. It's not her fault that the writers chose to bring Chakotay to heel without so much as a whimper

    Akoochymoya, we are far from the backbones of our people
     
  8. Captain_Nick

    Captain_Nick Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ben Sisko is baller. Tough as fuck.
     
  9. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    Then why are you participating in this thread if you have nothing to input??? Did you even read the title of the thread??? They're other threads in this forum will and has praised the GOAT, no problem.
     
  10. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

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    There are things in Voyager that just don't add up. For example with the Voth (Distant Origin). Upon seeing that Janeway is ordering people around, the Voth professor concludes that it must be a matriarchy. That's very odd considering that the (current) ruler of the Voth is a FEMALE! I mean seriously, that seems like the writer forgetting their own scenario. I call that sloppy. Plus again, it's Janeway, female Captain, emphasis on the "female".
     
  11. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Well, just look at the following description of each captain taking on the Maquis.

    PICARD: Sent a deep cover operative into the Maquis. She turned traitor and joined them for real. Final score: Maquis 1, Picard 0.
    SISKO: Eddington got away with betraying Sisko ("For the Cause"). He counted coup on him, then later sabotaged the Defiant and had him almost crazy with anger. Sisko finally beat him by poisoning a planet. Final score: Maquis 3, Sisko 1
    JANEWAY: She took 30 or so Maquis members into her crew. They were eating out of her hand in a year. Final score: Janeway 30, Maquis 0.
     
  12. Captain_Nick

    Captain_Nick Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm disagreeing with the post, as you should have been able to work out for yourself if you'd bothered to read.
     
  13. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    As long as it's on-topic, disagreement should be welcome. It might give you new insights, or teach you the weaknesses of your argument. And if your argument has no weaknesses, then they're nothing to worry about.
     
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  14. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It depends on what you mean with "conflict".

    Oh yes, we had such a series once.
    About a ship with a mixed-up crew of military and civilians which was stranded in space, set for a journey which no one knew where it would lead.

    There was constant arguing and bickering between the military faction and the civilian faction, especialkly between the so-called captain, aweak alcoholic and the downright horrible "leader" of the civilian faction.

    They also had a crazy scientist (played by Robert Carlyle and the only interesting character in the series) who looked like a dear ringer to a weird guy I once know which actually made it a bit funny and a female Doctor who by accident ended up on the ship and who contantly whined about "I shouldn't have been on this ship!"

    The whole first season were full of episodes where they did nothing but argue and fight. When a bunch of pale blue aliens finally showed up in two episodes and started messing up things, I actually cheered for them. Let's go Blues! :bolian:

    That series was called Stargate Universe and it was horrible. The only reason why I continued to watch that series was because it became a joke between me and a guy who was working at the same place as I did and who admitted that he had fallen asleep on two occasions while watching episodes of that series.

    After that it was always:
    "Do you know what day it is?"
    Yes, it's finally Friday!"
    "And what is happening tonight!"
    "It's time for our favorite series! It's time for Stargate Universe!" :lol:

    And on Monday, we used to have a good laugh while discussing the latest episode. Ah, those were the days!

    I guess that it was the only way to watch it without being bored to death.

    I got my fair share of series with internal conflicts there and then.

    Whatever shortcomings Voyager may have had when it comes to writers, actors and characters kicked out for no reasons, I'm actually happy that it never became like Stargate Universe.
     
  15. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

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    There were never any fights between the Maquis and Janeway's crew. The worst we got were three misfits that seemed like they wouldn't fit anywhere not even in the Maquis and then in fiction (worst case scenario) and then hypnotized by a Maquis nutball. That's it! That's all the Maquis/ Starfleet we got in seven seasons. I call that pitiful. They go to the trouble of creating a group in three series and that all ends up in that big nothing in Voyager.

    Voyager: We'll find a way to ruin the best concepts.
     
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  16. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    Ron Moore basically described VOY as this, "I and some other people had all these fantastic concepts to get us away from TNG and the stale material that we had before. Then UPN said they wanted the show to be as much like TNG as possible. The writers room was also full of ex-TNG writers who primarily hated the concept and just wished they had more TNG to write."
     
  17. Michael

    Michael [ˈmɪçaːʔeːl] Moderator

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    What the fuck is up with you telling people who disagree with the thread's premise to stop posting in it? Was @Akiraprise's hint earlier too subtle for you?
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    They caught a Nazi in 2003.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/01/11/6843...s-deported-to-germany-last-year-is-dead-at-95

    And 2009.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-trial-accused-helping-kill-28-000-Jews.html
     
  19. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    That might excuse their decision to write scripts that were more TNG-like. It was a successful formula, after all. However, it doesn't excuse their sloppiness.
     
  20. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not the 'greatest Trek series ever' (but I would say the same of any Trek series)... I personally liked Voyager more than TNG or Ds9... and I also liked Janeway as a captain.

    Chakotay and Janeway had their fair share of butting heads and disagreements throughout the series (far more than say Riker and Picard, and similar amount to DS9's Kira an Sisko).

    But Chakotay also finished Starfleet Academy and attained a rank of Commander before joining the Maqui.
    It actually makes sense he would fall in line with the SF crew and under Janeway's command quicker than others (or at least he was far more willing to provide his support given the circumstances - the Maqui trusted him, and he in turn KNEW and understood Starfleet - if Chakotay wasn't there, then there might have been more room for disagreements - but again, this would have been difficult to see considering that the Maqui are recent ex-UFP citizens).

    Also, there wasn't much room for conflict here if you ask me. Both Voyager's original crew and the Maqui were UFP citizens and had far more in common than not.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021