A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Oddly enough this was a key scene for the person who got me into the show. He insisted for him it was a moment where it was first indicated how different this show was from Star Trek; after all, Garibaldi totally would have killed Londo just there. When on any Star Trek would a regular castmember have threatened to do that to another regular castmember?

I can understand why he feels that way, but the scene of a man calmly talking another man down from committing murder felt overly-familiar and very Star Trekesque. Really, it's like almost any show where that sort of situation is presented, which is why I wish it wasn't presented at all.

I know how you feel, and I tend to feel the same way. Problem is I am charged with keeping the peace here, and when you come down on one side or the other it invites abuse and hyperbole that we really don't need or want. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

Yeah, I understand. I don't want to be responsible for starting a war.

Or do I?

I guess not.

Whatever the terms of your employment may have been, they have no bearing whatever either on how professional publication or writing for the entertainment industry work or how they ought to work.

That was exactly my point. Mysterion was claiming JMS putting his scripts online would be like me working for free, and I was pointing out that the situation was entirely different.

Nice.

In fairness to me, I also referred to myself as a cunt.

Try writing for 12+ hours per day. It's strange how one would want to be paid for the work they are providing that's making the studio millions of dollars. The thing is, the writer doesn't get to share in most of it, but the script is the writer's property, so if he wants to charge for it to make a little more, it's his choice. A lot of scripts are sold in bookstores for this very reason. If the script is available online, fewer people buy the book and then it's harder to make your next couple of rent payments while you are trying to secure your next job. In the US a writer does not get a permanent job with a studio. We're hired on a show-by-show and season-by-season basis. A contract can be as short as 6 weeks. After that, if you don't continue on the same show, you are OUT OF WORK and NEED extra money, possibly for a whole year or more while you are waiting for the next season in television or out trying to apply elsewhere and prove that you have other skills than writing.

I lost my job last year. Dell dropped the contract with the company I was working for because they felt that premium software support for the UK is best provided by people who speak English as a second language. I was given two options, 1) work for 3 months as normal or 2) work for two months and receive that final month's pay as a lump sum. I chose option 2, because I foolishly thought that I would find work within the two months I was given. Sadly for me, the economy imploded and there was no work for a guy with only one year's experience out of college. After six months of not receiving money I went on welfare. Six months after that the economy wasn't improving, so the only way I was going to find work was to up-skill. So now I'm back in college doing a masters degree, which I hate. Of course, I couldn't stay on welfare and go to college, so all I'm receiving now is a measly €2,100 grant for the whole year. I'm living with my parents at the age of 23 because I can't afford to do otherwise. And in the midst of all this my ingrown toe-nail has recurred for the third time, and since I lost my health insurance when I lost my job I am forced to rely upon the state system, which means that I have to pay for my own medication (Flucloxacillin) and I can expect to wait six-nine months before a doctor finds the fifteen minutes he needs to cut the bloody nail out. Until that time wearing shoes can be an agony.

Lesson: Life sucks. For pretty much everyone. Even the people that claim to be happy now, eventually their life will go back to complete suckiness once again. A sucky life is like entropy, the universe seems to move towards it unstoppably.

J. Michael Straczynski is a successful and award-winning television and movie writer, and I believe he writes novels and something called "comic books" as well. While he's probably not a super-duper millionaire like Carlos Slim Helú, I would imagine that the state of his life is considerably better than mine. Do I feel sympathy for all the struggling writers trying to get a foot on the ladder and failing? Of course, writing is a very difficult profession to be successful in. Do I feel any sympathy for JMS?

*looks down at toe*

No, I can't say that I do.

Now that I know that the OP thinks writers who stand up for their rights and who expect to be compensated properly for their work are "cocksuckers" under contract I'm not interested in what he thinks about B5 or any other piece of creative work. He just doesn't get it.

Things I was right about: 1,892,043

Sorry, let me explain: You don't know me, but I of course know you quite well due to your status on this board, and I didn't fail to notice that you had posted in this thread. After saying what I did in my last post I said to myself that you would probably react by announcing that you were leaving the thread. I even had a witty retort lined up: "Oh no! The skin on my nose has fallen off!"

I wish I could say that I'm sorry about you deciding not to read, but I'm not, I'm basking in the warm feeling of being proven right yet again.

To anybody else that is on Dennis' side and has decided not to read this thread due to my position on JMS and his scripts, to you I will say that I am sorry. I wish that you could understand my position on this issue but I understand if you feel that you do not wish to partake in further discussions on this show. I wish you well, and if you want an autographed picture of me to put on your dartboard then send me a PM and I'll get right on it.


To those that are sticking around, that's the last thing I plan to say on this script issue, it has derailed the thread enough.

 

[Neroon]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

So since we are leaving the divergent topic far behind and returning to the reviews of the episodes ... which one is next, or did you establish in which order you are watching them? It doesn't really matter all that much. The variations are really only minor.

 

[Jan]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

As Harvey said, I'll happily look up anything you're not sure of. In addition to the script books, I've also got the shooting drafts to all of the episodes (purchased from cast & crew members). For the bonus volume, I created an inventory of differences between the scripts and the episodes so if folks are interested, I may chime in once in a while to note deleted scenes or ways scenes were changed.

Jan

 

[Canadave]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

As Harvey said, I'll happily look up anything you're not sure of. In addition to the script books, I've also got the shooting drafts to all of the episodes (purchased from cast & crew members). For the bonus volume, I created an inventory of differences between the scripts and the episodes so if folks are interested, I may chime in once in a while to note deleted scenes or ways scenes were changed.

Jan

I'm sure this has been said before, but I'm constantly amazed at the sheer volume of B5 information you always seem to have on-hand. Kudos.

Oh, and since the script-payment-wars seem to have died down, I'll de-cloak and say hi. I've always missed your threads as they were in progress TGB, so I'm glad I caught this one near the beginning. :thumbsup:

 

[Jimmy Bob]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I find myself suddenly missing the old provincial flavour of the Trek sub-forums. Ben hasn't even started reviewing yet and already such chaos. Such a wild place.

Anyway, good luck TGB. You're in the big city now.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Pfft. This ain't the big city. Let's see him do one of these review threads in TNZ.

 

[JoeD80]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Do I feel sympathy for all the struggling writers trying to get a foot on the ladder and failing? Of course, writing is a very difficult profession to be successful in. Do I feel any sympathy for JMS?

The minute you pull out the "he is richer than others so he shouldn't have the same rights" is the minute you lose the argument. You either support writers' rights or you don't. It's a bullshit argument to start saying "oh he's got so much money though so he should really share stuff for free and if he decides to take what is legally his he's a [meanie]." Apparently your position is writers should have rights until they become successful but then they should share themselves with the world for free.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Anyway, back to Babylon 5...

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Do I feel sympathy for all the struggling writers trying to get a foot on the ladder and failing? Of course, writing is a very difficult profession to be successful in. Do I feel any sympathy for JMS?

The minute you pull out the "he is richer than others so he shouldn't have the same rights" is the minute you lose the argument. You either support writers' rights or you don't. It's a bullshit argument to start saying "oh he's got so much money though so he should really share stuff for free and if he decides to take what is legally his he's a [meanie]." Apparently your position is writers should have rights until they become successful but then they should share themselves with the world for free.

I think that some folks have taken this further than it needs to go. TGB has already done his due dilligence by JMS by paying for the DVDs he's watching (or atleast someone has). No one is arguing that JMS does not deserve compensation for his work. Fans have already done so by consuming the B5 product and its ancillary materials. TGB's point is that there is a point in which the creators are just being pig headed. The scripts are simply being used as reference by fans that want to fairly represent the original work. We're not talking about new material. Hell, from a purely business perspective his position is foolish since fan materials can often entice others to check out the original work. Its just shortsighted to try to squeeze the very people that already consume and admire his work. To be fair, JMS is HARDLY the only writer to do this.

Now let TGB continue to stroke his ego by reviewing B5

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Midnight on the Firing Line (***)

This is the first real episode of the show so I shouldn't expect Earth-shattering revelations or the universe being turned upside down, but for a show famous for having lasting consequences this episode sure does wrap up neatly. There's an a-plot about the Narn attacking the Centauri and there's a b-plot about some raiders attacking ships (for some reason), and the barely-existent conclusion to the barely-existent b-plot provided an easy out for the a-plot. When does this show stop being like Star Trek?

B5 is deceptive. While this episode is wrapped up nicely, the one thing to know is that nothing in this epsiode is really settled. In fact, this episode is deceptively tidy. Its far more important than one gets from an initial viewing.

 

[JoeD80]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Anyway, back to Babylon 5...

Now let TGB continue to stroke his ego by reviewing B5

OK, back on topic:

Midnight on the Firing Line (***)

This is the first real episode of the show so I shouldn't expect Earth-shattering revelations or the universe being turned upside down, but for a show famous for having lasting consequences this episode sure does wrap up neatly. There's an a-plot about the Narn attacking the Centauri and there's a b-plot about some raiders attacking ships (for some reason), and the barely-existent conclusion to the barely-existent b-plot provided an easy out for the a-plot. When does this show stop being like Star Trek?

B5 is deceptive. While this episode is wrapped up nicely, the one thing to know is that nothing in this epsiode is really settled. In fact, this episode is deceptively tidy. Its far more important than one gets from an initial viewing.

Yep, it's connected to a lot of events in future episodes. I caught a lot more of it on my 2nd viewing of the series. Season one is a good introduction with hints at things going on and events come to the forefront fairly quickly. I wouldn't really say the first episode was like Star Trek; perhaps it felt like the "reset button" mentality that Trek got caught in; but events *will* have consequences and the reset button doesn't really happen in B5 so need to worry there.

 

[notwendium]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Season one has some stinkers. Some really big stinkers. To be fair, "Infection" was the first episode shot and it shows.
For me, Season one is redeemed by "Born to the Purple" (a Londo episode that has series-spanning consequences).
Mind War (Bester's introduction, must-see even if the A story is a 1-shot)
"Parliament of Dreams" (that really gets the ball rolling)
Babylon Squared (a familiar-to-trek SF trope-heavy episode that is more then it seems)
Voice In The Wilderness (watch these back to back with B^2)
Chrysalis... redeems S1 all on its own.

Honorable mention to Eyes (a pre-DS9 Jeff Combs)

 

[Reverend]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

^ Let's wait until he's gotten to those episodes before we start to discuss them, yes?

 

[Jan]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I'm sure this has been said before, but I'm constantly amazed at the sheer volume of B5 information you always seem to have on-hand. Kudos.

Yeah, I've got a lot, due in large part to having become a fan while the show was still on the air. It's nice that a number of fans here also have the script books now, too.

I've never known B5 fans to be anything but helpful to the new fans. Probably because we enjoy the vicarious experience of seeing the show for the first time again through threads like this.

Jan

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

As Harvey said, I'll happily look up anything you're not sure of. In addition to the script books, I've also got the shooting drafts to all of the episodes (purchased from cast & crew members). For the bonus volume, I created an inventory of differences between the scripts and the episodes so if folks are interested, I may chime in once in a while to note deleted scenes or ways scenes were changed.

Jan

Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll be okay without it. And sorry if I was rude to you yesterday, I was in a particularly bad mood for a variety of reasons, I hope you weren't too offended.


Soul Hunter (½)

SOUL HUNTER: I protect souls, I do not harm them. I talk to them, without me they would be lost to the ether to in an insubstantial existence. A great void awaits them, but I save them, rescue them. Without me they would have no purpose, but I give them meaning. I care for my souls as if they were my own...

Shut up.

...I nurse them, protect them from the darkness which awaits...

I said "Shut up".

...and without me the souls would be gone into a meaningless nothing and they would cry out...

Shut up!

...so I shouted "Bring me Peter Pan!" but the clerk said they were all out, so instead I rented Footloose...

Shut up!!

...and then she asked me how often I brushed and I said twice a day, but she gave me this glare and I was forced to admit that it was more like twice a week. So she made tutting sounds and told me I'd need fillings...

How can someone with such an awesome voice be so dull?

...I seem to have gone a bit off topic, so I'll end this.

Thank the gods.

...by saying that my souls need me, for without me the souls would be gone forever.

Arrrrgh! Stop!

...and ever.

Shut up shut up shut up!!!!!

..for all etern-

I didn't see any more of the episode from this point on because a shoe somehow shot across the room and broke my TV.

I don't believe in souls, but there are many things in science fiction which I'm willing to accept if the characters are interesting enough, that's why I'm willing to forgive the finale of BSG. But I find the Soul Hunter in this episode to be so irritating that I can't buy into the concept, he talks so slowly about such boring things that every minute he's on screen feels like an irritating eternity. He's like a lonely old man telling stories that nobody is interested in.

Once again, the story is standard fare, there's an alien who turns out to be evil, he decides to kill off a main cast member but the heroic captain figure swoops in the save the day. I'm still not that interested in Delenn as a character, so putting her in peril wasn't successful in keeping me interested in the plot. And the worst thing of all about this episode is that there was no Londo or G'Kar, that's like watching an episode of Frasier where Niles doesn't turn up.

The episode tells us that Delenn is a member of the Grey Council, which I would be far more intrigued by if I knew what the hell that was. When Sinclair discovers this fact he seems mildly shocked, but instead of trying to figure out this mystery he says something like "I have plenty of time to figure that out later" which reeks of the character knowing that he shouldn't investigate further because he knows it will come up again in some episode down the line. It would be like watching an episode of Scooby Doo where the gang learn of a haunted house, so instead they spend the night at a luxury hotel.

Commander Greyshirt: 3


I've been told that Martin Sheen shows up as a Soul Hunter at some point, is that true? Because that was one of the ways my brother tried to sell me on the show since he knew I was a big West Wing fan, but the idea of him as a Soul Hunter makes me worry.

 

[Booji]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

yup, Martin Sheen does pop up as a Soul Hunter, but not until after the finale in a tv flick.

 

[Forbin]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I'm sure this has been said before, but I'm constantly amazed at the sheer volume of B5 information you always seem to have on-hand. Kudos.

Yeah, I've got a lot, due in large part to having become a fan while the show was still on the air. It's nice that a number of fans here also have the script books now, too.

I've never known B5 fans to be anything but helpful to the new fans. Probably because we enjoy the vicarious experience of seeing the show for the first time again through threads like this.

Jan

Also 'cause we never got partitioned like Trek fans did - "You like B5 more than Crusade? Are you nuts?" "What? you think Legend of the Rangers' third season was better than B5: Lost Tales second season, you shiftless nerf-herder?!"

Maybe if the spinoffs had succeeded we'd be there, but maybe we're lucky they didn't.

 

[Forbin]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Soul Hunter: I always thought of that guy as "Evil Popeye."

 

[Sykonee]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I've been told that Martin Sheen shows up as a Soul Hunter at some point, is that true? Because that was one of the ways my brother tried to sell me on the show since he knew I was a big West Wing fan, but the idea of him as a Soul Hunter makes me worry.

Honestly, Sheppard's "crazy old-man" turn as a Soul Hunter was more memorable than Sheen's. At least Sheppard was... creepy.

 

[Jan]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

As Harvey said, I'll happily look up anything you're not sure of. In addition to the script books, I've also got the shooting drafts to all of the episodes (purchased from cast & crew members). For the bonus volume, I created an inventory of differences between the scripts and the episodes so if folks are interested, I may chime in once in a while to note deleted scenes or ways scenes were changed.

Jan

Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll be okay without it. And sorry if I was rude to you yesterday, I was in a particularly bad mood for a variety of reasons, I hope you weren't too offended.

Thanks for the apology, it's appreciated.

I may still post some deleted or changed scenes from time to time just because I think they're interesting. And in a few cases, the shaved bits of dialogue would have had a real effect if they'd been left in.

Jan