A Need For TOS
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Sixties and seventies shows gave us a full story every week unlike most of television these days which stretches out a plot over five or six weeks and then fills the rest with meaningless piffle!
JB
I love the original Star Trek just as most of you guys, I really do, but sometimes I wonder why some aren't able to express their adoration without trashing the later series/movies or the current TV landscape at the same time. Star Trek is a very special thing to me, but there was shit on television in the 60s, too. Just as now there's some really exceptional storytelling on television as well. Loving one thing doesn't mean you have to hate the other.
Honestly, whenever I catch DS9 or Voyager in syndication on TV, I want nothing more than to turn off the bland, soapish, writers' room drabness for the life, colour, excitement, humanity, and universally compelling acting and storytelling of the original series...
...and yet it you ever go on r/StarTrek, the exact reverse is inexplicably the majority opinion.
...and yet it you ever go on r/StarTrek, the exact reverse is inexplicably the majority opinion.
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^ Nailed it in one!
But why do you choose to express your love for one thing by stating how much you hate another thing? Is there actually so little to love about TOS in and of itself that you have to resort to trashing DS9 or Voyager in order to make clear how much better you feel it is in comparison? Not trying to start a fight, but I honestly don't get this and I'm somewhat saddened that so many here seem to think it's a good idea.
Except that DS9 is a good show.
But why do you choose to express your love for one thing by stating how much you hate another thing? Is there actually so little to love about TOS in and of itself that you have to resort to trashing DS9 or Voyager in order to make clear how much better you feel it is in comparison? Not trying to start a fight, but I honestly don't get this and I'm somewhat saddened that so many here seem to think it's a good idea.
I would just say that it happens to be an expression of an honest opinion, when I make such a contrast. If you honestly feel valuable things are slipping away in the culture, year by year, decade by decade, as I do, it's just a very sad thing that needs to be said, that I take no delight in saying, whatsoever. I hate arguing. I look for positives everywhere to appreciate. I certainly never say that anything old beats out anything new. I am not knocking the new to make the old look better by contrast. It's not a calculated thing, not a tactic. It's just a bit of depressed honest expression. Consider yourself fortunate that you see more to like in the new stuff than I do. I envy you.
C
C57D
Guest
Not wanting an argument, but rather wanting to explain a position.
TNG was preachy, superior, technobabbled to the hilt and over idealistic. It's version of the Prime Directive was the most immoral morality I have ever witnessed. And don't even get me started on how Lt Barclay was bullied.
DS9 was warfare and espionage and with Section31, turned the Federation into a Police state.
VOY was just a boring formulistic TNG clone, but without the good bits.
ENT could have been great but rapidly continued on the TNG/VOY technobabble path and then died with the 9/11 in space, lets go get the Tali(Suli)ban story arc.
No surprise that adventurous, hands on, exciting, heroic, "down to earth" TOS is the best !!!
TNG was preachy, superior, technobabbled to the hilt and over idealistic. It's version of the Prime Directive was the most immoral morality I have ever witnessed. And don't even get me started on how Lt Barclay was bullied.
DS9 was warfare and espionage and with Section31, turned the Federation into a Police state.
VOY was just a boring formulistic TNG clone, but without the good bits.
ENT could have been great but rapidly continued on the TNG/VOY technobabble path and then died with the 9/11 in space, lets go get the Tali(Suli)ban story arc.
No surprise that adventurous, hands on, exciting, heroic, "down to earth" TOS is the best !!!
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Agreed. I was hesitant to watch TNG at first, but eventually watched a few episodes. I thought they were good. There just seemed to be too much talk and not enough action for my tastes. So, back to TOS I went. Kick ass, Captain Kirk!
I guess my point is that I wouldn't really have a problem with your reasoning if the question was “Which is the better version of Star Trek?” or something similar that invites the comparison to newer Trek. Granted, the OP talks about getting away from modern TV, but I understood this to be about the love for TOS and why it's so good and special. And yet so many people here choose to answer by way of comparing it to newer Trek, which to me just seems completely unrelated and unnecessary. And it's not just this thread, it's something I noticed in many threads in this forum. You certainly don't have to love the versions of Star Trek that came after the original, but at the same time you certainly don't have to bring up your hate for them each time you are asked about why the original is good. Just seems weird to me is all.
C
C57D
Guest
Although I can understand what M is saying, that a love for TOS should be founded on its own merits (of which there are many), I also feel that comparison of what you do like versus what you don't is also valid. For me TOS has its own "vibe", a mixture of the Westerns it was loosely based upon, WW2 naval films, the concurrent space race and some of the scifi that proceeded it (yeah Forbidden Planet I'm looking at you!). It was all hands on action, white hat wearing good guys, the "right stuff", "can do", honest adventure on the foundation of scifi tech. It felt like our own future (after cities on the moon and flying cars) and it felt good and wholesome.
What followed just didn't have that vibe (for reasons given in my post previously in this thread) and so doesnt really feel like Star Trek to me.
And now (in tv drama in general) every second character seems to be a psychotic hardman or an over entitled, needy brat. Sickenly gratuitous violence is the norm (Walking Dead and Game of Thrones lead the pack) and those heady days of good vs evil, resilience and morality seem long gone. Our loss, which drives me back to TOS every time.
What followed just didn't have that vibe (for reasons given in my post previously in this thread) and so doesnt really feel like Star Trek to me.
And now (in tv drama in general) every second character seems to be a psychotic hardman or an over entitled, needy brat. Sickenly gratuitous violence is the norm (Walking Dead and Game of Thrones lead the pack) and those heady days of good vs evil, resilience and morality seem long gone. Our loss, which drives me back to TOS every time.
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I started watching TNG on rental video tapes and found them a bit of a chore at first. The Ferengi certainly were not The Klingons but when The Borg first showed up I was hooked, but they hardly ever appeared in the show, one episode a year in fact but even they couldn't replace TOS as my favourite Trek!
JB
JB
But why do you choose to express your love for one thing by stating how much you hate another thing? Is there actually so little to love about TOS in and of itself that you have to resort to trashing DS9 or Voyager in order to make clear how much better you feel it is in comparison? Not trying to start a fight, but I honestly don't get this and I'm somewhat saddened that so many here seem to think it's a good idea.
Like I said in my post, I genuinely feel a *need* for the original series when I catch VOY and DS9 in syndication. I have been savagely berated my entire life for liking TOS and my ambivalence toward the Berman-Braga era of 'Trek' by my peers. On 'r/StarTrek', nothing positive is said about the original series or the animated show. DS9 is lauded as if it was the pioneering, revolutionary series that began Trek and inspired generations of young viewers to ponder the human condition and/or go into scientific or medical fields. In fact, younger Trek fans typically have nothing but the harshest assessments for TOS, with many even calling for it to be expunged from canon or remade in the post-Roddenberry, Berman/Braga, 1991-2005 style. Some have even characterised TOS and the original cast and crew as a collective 'disgrace to Star Trek'.
TOS fans are constantly harassed by these die-hard TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT fanboys. The new flock of Kelvin Timeline/Abramsverse fans are even more cruel.
I would also like to note that I actually generally prefer modern TV dramas (e.g., Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Mad Men, Game of Thrones, Halt and Catch Fire, Better Call Saul, The X-Files, The Wire, Law and Order, Masters of Sex, various Netflix originals, Luther, Ray Donovan, et al.) to those from the '50s-'70s. I'm also 24, so I don't prefer TOS as some old-timer who just won't adapt to the times. It's not a modernity issue, either. I also like TNG and think that DS9 stands on its own merits (although this prevailing attitude that it's 'the best Trek' and a show single-handledly responsible for the standards of modern television is ludicrous). Voyager was a literal early '90s CGI-cum-videotape eye-sore with a farcical and robotic cast and generally foolish plots.
Trek was about excitement, fun, light-heartedness, emotive and human characters (and aliens), with humanist-themed plots asnd and intrigue. After 1991, Trek lost *all* of that, and newer generations can't help themselves from further desecrating TOS's legacy.
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Star Trek is king of sci-fi, for me. TOS is aging, but man... it sure holds up. I periodically take notice of things I'd not paid much attention to in the past. There was a definite richness to the concept and you can see how the cast was really devoted to it. Despite all the chaos going on behind the scenes during the 2nd season that resulted in a somewhat mediocre 3rd season. Everything from the design of the ships to the musical accompaniment, and of course the guest actors. There's so much to appreciate. I honestly thought I'd eventually fall out of love for TOS... but the opposite has happened.
The remastering is wonderful. Sure, the earlier CGI kind of sucks. A pity, really. I think they could've just cleaned up most of the original model shots. But for ones that needed it (like the ship really moving instead of rocking back-forth on a wire), CGI was necessary... and I guess if both types were combined it would look weird. Still, everything else looks so amazing. The detail and clarity is wonderful. And I have to say... I'm noticing previously cut scenes here and there and it's like a little treasure, "lost TOS moments" that are suddenly new. Kind of nice.
I've not made the leap to owning the Blu-ray media (just good ol' original DVD). Despite loving technology, I'm slow to adapt. But you can bet that the first thing I'll buy is the Blu-ray set of TOS. I'm a little afraid of the detail to come. I've been watching TOS on H&I, coming in at 1080p... and man oh man, you can really see the "seams"!
The remastering is wonderful. Sure, the earlier CGI kind of sucks. A pity, really. I think they could've just cleaned up most of the original model shots. But for ones that needed it (like the ship really moving instead of rocking back-forth on a wire), CGI was necessary... and I guess if both types were combined it would look weird. Still, everything else looks so amazing. The detail and clarity is wonderful. And I have to say... I'm noticing previously cut scenes here and there and it's like a little treasure, "lost TOS moments" that are suddenly new. Kind of nice.
I've not made the leap to owning the Blu-ray media (just good ol' original DVD). Despite loving technology, I'm slow to adapt. But you can bet that the first thing I'll buy is the Blu-ray set of TOS. I'm a little afraid of the detail to come. I've been watching TOS on H&I, coming in at 1080p... and man oh man, you can really see the "seams"!
Me too. From what Classic_Collin said, I won't even bother. How can people berate TOS, the mother lode that started it all? These are people who have no sense of appreciation. CGI addicts. Short attention span dweebs who can't sit still on a slow moment. Without TOS, they wouldn't have had those glorious successors. ALL of Trek is good. And I can't stand it when people try to compare one series to another, as one being superior. Yes, we can have our favorites, but there's no need to deride anything. The JJ Abrams verse is a different story. That's not "real" Star Trek. It's a highly adept fan's dream of what he'd like it to be. And that's fine for him and his ilk. I have enjoyed the NuTrek movies, but not nearly as much as the original ST universe.
NuTrek relies too heavily on the memes of today, the nuances of modern movie making which is about having a very basic, thin story, shiny attractive actors, and CGI galore. CGI goes FAR too rich than it should. You know, when most artists paint a realistic scene they don't include ALL of the detail. Otherwise you end up with a photograph... which some artists do. But where's the merit in that? The real artistry is knowing what to include and what to exclude. CGI movie making includes WAY too much these days. It's... overwhelming in a stupid kind of way.
r/StarTrek is overwhelmingly dominated by die-hard DS9 fanboys. Anytime anyone posts or comments positively or inquiringly about the iconic original series, swarms of responses come out decrying and mocking its quality and encouraging people to watch DS9, VOY, or TNG (but only seasons 3-5) instead.
This is the crowd that *reveres* Ronald D. Moore as a nearly divine figure and callously eschews most Sci-Fi that predated his signature aesthetic of the dark, droll and dismal. In fact, their only greivance with DS9, other than it having *only* lasted 7 seasons, is over its homages to TOS (e.g., easter eggs, the commemorative 'Trials and Tribble-ations' episode, etc.). They utterly loathe absolutely everything about TOS, and detest the first two seasons of TNG almost on par with their disgust over TOS. One of the most common refrains seen in the comments section is 'I've seen every Star Trek episode 4 times (except, obviously, for TOS and TAS LOLOLOL)'.
Long story short, it only took me about a week to leave that 'fan community' once and for all.
Perhaps it's the fact that all Star Trek TV shows were more a mirror for the times they were made..
TOS..bare knuckle fistfights..action adventure..wagon train to the stars..with a bit of social commentary
reflecting the issues of the day (Sometimes with a VERY heavy hand--LTBYLB)
loved it from day one and have never lost my love for it.
TNG, I remember seeing my first episode "Conspiracy" in a New York hotel room after 3 years of duty in Europe
It seemed more sedate, less action and more drama orientated, the social commentary was much more subtly
handled, but the interactions between the characters seemed much more controlled with much less banter than TOS
in later seasons, technobabble took over as the go to solution for much of the show.. I still enjoyed it..saw all the episodes
and at one point thought it superior to TOS in some aspects.. until, with hindsight, I saw the problems with the drama.
DS9, in which morality becomes muddled, and the end justifies the means, some of the best military science fiction
ever put to the small screen, but it drifted away from the idealism that Star Trek seemed to stand for in favor of
warfare..and intrigue. but again, quite watchable to me..as a military sci-fi show having Star Trek trappings.
VOY, seemed to be a retread of TNG, but it's interesting story ideas were let down by predictable story conclusions..I do feel the stories seemed too easily resolved, many times through technobabble ex machina
it never quite engaged me--and I've never seen all it's episodes..Though I'll try to give it another chance soon.
ENT, such promise, it never became the series I expected (a prequel to TOS) until season 4, but I kept watching
it from the first episode, it was enjoyable but was more 24th century than 22nd century, while seasons 1 and 2 were a bit generic
season 3 had much promise, but I felt it was botched in execution. Season 4 seemed to finally rekindle the spirit that TOS had,
but was too little too late.
I'll keep an open mind with STD
... But TOS is still the best to me.. in fact I'll spool up my Blu-Ray and watch
The Doomsday Machine tonight!
TOS..bare knuckle fistfights..action adventure..wagon train to the stars..with a bit of social commentary
reflecting the issues of the day (Sometimes with a VERY heavy hand--LTBYLB)
loved it from day one and have never lost my love for it.
TNG, I remember seeing my first episode "Conspiracy" in a New York hotel room after 3 years of duty in Europe
It seemed more sedate, less action and more drama orientated, the social commentary was much more subtly
handled, but the interactions between the characters seemed much more controlled with much less banter than TOS
in later seasons, technobabble took over as the go to solution for much of the show.. I still enjoyed it..saw all the episodes
and at one point thought it superior to TOS in some aspects.. until, with hindsight, I saw the problems with the drama.
DS9, in which morality becomes muddled, and the end justifies the means, some of the best military science fiction
ever put to the small screen, but it drifted away from the idealism that Star Trek seemed to stand for in favor of
warfare..and intrigue. but again, quite watchable to me..as a military sci-fi show having Star Trek trappings.
VOY, seemed to be a retread of TNG, but it's interesting story ideas were let down by predictable story conclusions..I do feel the stories seemed too easily resolved, many times through technobabble ex machina
it never quite engaged me--and I've never seen all it's episodes..Though I'll try to give it another chance soon.
ENT, such promise, it never became the series I expected (a prequel to TOS) until season 4, but I kept watching
it from the first episode, it was enjoyable but was more 24th century than 22nd century, while seasons 1 and 2 were a bit generic
season 3 had much promise, but I felt it was botched in execution. Season 4 seemed to finally rekindle the spirit that TOS had,
but was too little too late.
I'll keep an open mind with STD
... But TOS is still the best to me.. in fact I'll spool up my Blu-Ray and watchThe Doomsday Machine tonight!
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