A more "serious" version of "Lower Decks"?

[fireproof78]

Just trying to find other people who think the way I do. I feel VERY alone on this board. I’ve seen people give these episodes 10 out of 10. Lower Decks is on the same level as City on the Edge of Forever, Duet, Inner Light, The Visitor, and others? “Blast shields go up and own, BLAST SHIELD”. Really?

If I'm rating a show I base it upon the show within itself. I will not compare it against other Trek shows. So, calling an LD episode a 10 is not the same as other series and their episodes being a 10.

Now, that's a more relativistic scoring and I don't know if everyone uses it. But, given that LD is a comedy, stating that it is on the same level as City on the Edge of Forever is disingenuous, at best. Completely unfair comparison and not one I'll engage in.

 

[NCC-73515]

Just trying to find other people who think the way I do. I feel VERY alone on this board. I’ve seen people give these episodes 10 out of 10. Lower Decks is on the same level as City on the Edge of Forever, Duet, Inner Light, The Visitor, and others? “Blast shields go up and own, BLAST SHIELD”. Really?

My standards for a cartoon are different

 

[Lord Garth]

Just trying to find other people who think the way I do. I feel VERY alone on this board. I’ve seen people give these episodes 10 out of 10. Lower Decks is on the same level as City on the Edge of Forever, Duet, Inner Light, The Visitor, and others? “Blast shields go up and own, BLAST SHIELD”. Really?

I've said in the past I scale the ratings. When I give something a 10, it's based on what I think is the best episode of the series or season.

For a while, I stopped giving ratings for LD episodes because it didn't know what a 10 for this series would look like.

My criteria: is this the best the episode can be, being what it is, and how effective was the punchline? Did the jokes land like they were supposed to?

 

[CorporalClegg]

As a rule, I find it best to try and not grade on a curve.

There’s a major difference between someone having an opinion based on personal tastes and fact.

I have never seen a more clear-cut example in all my years of fandom.

Well I don't ever remember mentioning facts specifically.

Nonetheless, there is certainly a level of objectivity to be had that lies at the heart of why Star Trek isn't more popular than it is or why the only elements of the franchise to really pierce through the zeitgeist at large are things like Trouble with Tribbles, Voyage Home, Oh-NIne, and its more charming idiosyncrasies.

And I suppose I should amend my previous statement. Nearly all Star Trek takes itself too seriously. There are, however, many episodes or films that take themselves too too seriously, which is when people start to snicker, roll their eyes, and tune out.

 

[The Wormhole]

I remember when Stargate SG-1 was on the air, the producers defended their choice to make that show light-hearted and funny by stating there are too many sci-fi programs on the air which take themselves way too seriously and they didn't intended to be like them. One can easily read between the lines and know they were talking about Star Trek. Of course, Stargate eventually ended up going down that exact road anyway with SGU, but that's a whole other discussion.

Still, Star Trek and sci-fi in general has a lot of inherent silliness and a lot of ridiculous aspects to it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with embracing that silliness and taking the piss out of it, which is exactly why Lower Decks connects so well with me. That, and the show has one of the more engaging and interesting main casts of all Treks, IMO. Hell, I'd be so bold as to put Mariner amongst at least my top ten favorite characters in the entire franchise.

Lower Decks is on the same level as City on the Edge of Forever, Duet, Inner Light, The Visitor

I got to be honest, with the exception of The Visitor, I find all those episodes overrated.

 

[BillJ]

Hell, I'd be so bold as to put Mariner amongst at least my top ten favorite characters in the entire franchise.

Same here.

 

[Watersluis]

If the show was more "serious", a la TAS, from the start, would you still watch it? In my opinion, cartoons tend to be sitcoms, especially in regards to the show's comedy. Then again, we have shows like AVATAR: THE LAST AIRBENDER that seems to strike a fine line between being "serious" and "funny". Then again, the art style can make the difference between being seen as "comedic" and not.

Yes, in general cartoons that are more serious have more serious, and realistic art-styles. I certainly do not believe that cartoons are generally non-serious. On the topic of Star Trek, Gargoyles is well known for having many Star Trek alumni as voice cast and is known for it's complex characters and serious themes, and, indeed, the art-style is quite realistic.

That is a character voided by Jonathan Frakes, by the way; many have noted that some of the characters seem to resemble their voice actors.

Of course, two of the most serious and ultraviolent, cartoons and probably television series of all times, featuring serial killer protagonists that make Hannibal Lecter appear mild were known to have an oddly cartoonish art-style with nonrealistic proportions to provide a juxtaposition to it's mature and violent themes:

Elfen Lied:

kk

Happy Sugar Life:

I wouldn't recommend either for the faint of hart: I'm talking about graphic dismemberment, explicit rape scenes, and many things that probably required them to be cartoons to not be illegal in many jurisdictions — these are series that explicitly show child rape and would possibly be illegal in many places, were they live action.

Nevertheless, especially in the latter case it was interesting that they deliberately choose for such a nonrealistic art-style and cute atmosphære to juxtapose the macabre themes of the series.

 

[BillJ]

Just trying to find other people who think the way I do. I feel VERY alone on this board. I’ve seen people give these episodes 10 out of 10. Lower Decks is on the same level as City on the Edge of Forever, Duet, Inner Light, The Visitor, and others? “Blast shields go up and own, BLAST SHIELD”. Really?

Form a club with @Trekker4747.

 

[Trekker4747]

Form a club with @Trekker4747.

That's right call me out for having a different opinion. I don't think this show is just the greatest ever and that this episode (which I fully said I really enjoyed and was the best of the season so far) is on par with some of the best Trek has to offer and has ever done.

@Nenya is right. A 10? Really? It's a good episode but people are putting it on the same level as CotEoF, Inner Light, The Visitor, In the Pale Moonlight, Far Beyond the Stars and so many others? This episode had a powerful, dramatic punch the exceeded all expectations and was just truly part of the greatest in Trek?

It's a good episode, but come on, people squee way too much and there needs to be some sense of people bringing the hyperbole down to some sort of reasonable level.

it was a good episode. Fantastic and just the best, best, BEST thing ever produced for television? Hardly.

 

[fireproof78]

CotEoF, Inner Light, The Visitor, In the Pale Moonlight, Far Beyond the Stars and so many others? This episode had a powerful, dramatic punch the exceeded all expectations and was just truly part of the greatest in Trek?

False equivalency is still false equivalency. I can rate Airplane! a 10 for comedy and Schindler's List or Shawshank Redemption a 10 for drama. Those two films are clearly different enough that I am not saying one is equal to the other.

It's a good episode, but come on, people squee way too much and there needs to be some sense of people bringing the hyperbole down to some sort of reasonable level.

Why? People enjoy what they enjoy.

 

[BillJ]

@Nenya is right. A 10? Really? It's a good episode but people are putting it on the same level as CotEoF, Inner Light, The Visitor, In the Pale Moonlight, Far Beyond the Stars and so many others? This episode had a powerful, dramatic punch the exceeded all expectations and was just truly part of the greatest in Trek?

Yes. Shows with a comedic slant can have every bit of entertainment value as those with a dramatic slant. Right now, "Crisis Point" would easily be in my Trek top 25, and I'm sorry but outside of "City..." and "...Moonlight" those episodes are dull trudges. "Inner Light" is 45 minutes of me watching Picard watch a movie and Riker acting like a complete idiot. I could go on about others that fandom think are "serious artistic endeavors" but I think I made my point.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes. Shows with a comedic slant can have every bit of entertainment value as those with a dramatic slant. Right now, "Crisis Point" would easily be in my Trek top 25, and I'm sorry but outside of "City..." and "...Moonlight" those episodes are dull trudges. "Inner Light" is 45 minutes of me watching Picard watch a movie and Riker acting like a complete idiot. I could go on about others that fandom think are "serious artistic endeavors" but I think I made my point.

*grabs popcorn * No, no; please continue.

 

[Nerys Myk]

This discussion seems to imply that comedy is a lesser form of entertainment than drama. That the Andy Griffith Show is not as good as In The Heat of the Night because one is comedy with a law enforcement officer as the central character while the other is a drama with a law enforcement officer as the the central character.

 

[fireproof78]

This discussion seems to imply that comedy is a lesser form of entertainment than drama. That the Andy Griffith Show is not as good as In The Heat of the Night because one is comedy with a law enforcement as the central character while the other is a drama with a law enforcement as the the central character.

Comedy is often treated as such, yes.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I remember when Stargate SG-1 was on the air,

Indeed.

 

[fireproof78]

 

[Lord Garth]

That's right call me out for having a different opinion. I don't think this show is just the greatest ever and that this episode (which I fully said I really enjoyed and was the best of the season so far) is on par with some of the best Trek has to offer and has ever done.

@Nenya is right. A 10? Really? It's a good episode but people are putting it on the same level as CotEoF, Inner Light, The Visitor, In the Pale Moonlight, Far Beyond the Stars and so many others? This episode had a powerful, dramatic punch the exceeded all expectations and was just truly part of the greatest in Trek?

It's a good episode, but come on, people squee way too much and there needs to be some sense of people bringing the hyperbole down to some sort of reasonable level.

it was a good episode. Fantastic and just the best, best, BEST thing ever produced for television? Hardly.

I've been extremely clear on my ratings and why I rate the way I do. But if that's not good enough... I'll cut-and-paste something I typed elsewhere last year and the year before. It seems as if I'll have to explain this every year.

So this is a cut-and-paste of a cut-and-paste.

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.
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Part I: How My Rating Scale Works
Cutting and pasting a post of mine from two years ago. These are how I rate episodes and the rationale behind the ratings:

10 = Outstanding. This isn't necessarily "perfect", nothing is [see the explanation in Part II], but it evoked a strong emotional reaction from me, it moved me, and I wanted to watch it again immediately.

9 = Excellent. The best you can get but without being as powerful as a 10. It's more entertaining and satisfying than necessarily moving or draining.

8 = Great. Better than just "good". I liked it a lot. This is what gets me hooked on a show or makes me a fan.

7 = Good. This is what I rate something if I like it and I thought it was solid, but there wasn't enough there to push it passed that. Whatever drawbacks there might've been don't effect my overall enjoyment.

6 = Okay. I kind of liked of it. It killed time. There were probably some drawbacks but nothing too serious.

5 = Mixed, Mediocre, or Neutral. There was either as much good as there was bad or the show did absolutely nothing for me at all. It was just there. I didn't feel anything about it good or ill.

4 = Poor. I didn't particularly care for it. The positives don't outweigh the negatives.

3 = Bad. This isn't any good. Or I just didn't like it. But I don't hate it and I didn't think it was unwatchable.

2 = Terrible. This is where it becomes hard to sit through. Unless maybe I give it the MST3K treatment.

1 = Atrocious. I really, really had to resist the urge to turn it off. It took sheer will-power to get through the whole thing.

0 = Bottom of the Barrel. I couldn't watch it all the way through. I had to turn it off. This is pure trash. I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy.


Part II: Is a 10 really a 10?
And here's an explanation for why I curve ratings. This is from a post I also made two years ago:

Interstellar is a film I watched where, towards the end I was bawling my eyes out. It never happened before when I went to see a movie, at least not to that extreme. It was intense. The crying was so bad, as I was leaving the theater I had to get out of there as fast as I possibly could while hoping no one I knew saw me. It was that powerful of a movie. Clear 10.

Nothing in Discovery comes close to that. Nor am I expecting it to. So that's why I curve. I look at what's the best for this series and compare everything else in the series to it. Otherwise, nothing would get a 10.

The Passion of the Christ was an intense film. Another clear 10. I don't ever want to watch it again. I saw it, it made its point, and that one time experiencing it is all I feel I needed.

I wouldn't want to watch a season with a constant, steady stream of episodes like DS9's "The Visitor" for instance. It's riveting but watching something like that all the time is too much.

I had some friends over the other day. We were celebrating Abraham Lincoln's birthday. It was a silly thing but it was a good excuse to hang out. I thought about putting on Lincoln, the Steven Speilberg film from 2012, but given the overall vibe, I decided against it. We didn't want to watch something like that on a Monday night while we were all just hanging out.

 

[Lord Garth]

And yup, everyone reading, I know I'll have to re-post this whole thing again next year too.

 

[fireproof78]

And yup, everyone reading, I know I'll have to re-post this whole thing again next year too.

Sounds like a signature line. Though, I was waiting for the movie to come out personally. I would have rated it a 1

 

[Lord Garth]

Sounds like a signature line. Though, I was waiting for the movie to come out personally. I would have rated it a 1

Done and done.