"A Mistake For You to Accept Promotion"

[Lord Garth]

Yes, the last vestige. The ambitious Kirk ended with his accepting the promotion. I'd say The Captain of a Starship was the point he wanted to reach when he was younger and once he passed that point, his ambition stopped then he started pining for and romanticizing about his glory days.

I've seen it happen to a lot of people who peaked in life too soon.

 

[Tomalak]

We also know Kirk quit Starfleet at some point, only to return just before the events of TWOK.

No, we don't. I hashed this out in another thread, where we never came to an agreement on the meaning of Kirk's dialogue in Generations. But never once in on-screen canon are we told that Kirk left Starfleet at any point, let alone specifically prior to TWOK.

In Generations, we see that Kirk had some time where he considered marrying Antonia, and where he had to tell her that he was "going back to Starfleet" or somesuch. But that doesn't mean he retired. That could mean he had simply been on vacation and had told her he was going to resign, but then decided he wasn't going to and told her he was going back. Nothing is ever clearly, unambiguously stated that shows Kirk had a first retirement.

Okay, yes that interpretation works equally well. I'd argue if he hadn't retired at that point, he seriously considered it, and later came to wonder whether he should have. He got back to Starfleet and his adventures, but was left with "an empty house" when he eventually did retire.

I don't think he did regret his decision, but his eventual retirement left him alone, without purpose, and wondering what might have been.

 

[Skywalker]

Horatio Hornblower seemed to get on just fine as an admiral. Maybe Kirk just couldn't handle the extra responsibility.

 

[7thsealord]

Horatio Hornblower seemed to get on just fine as an admiral. Maybe Kirk just couldn't handle the extra responsibility.

Very true but, despite all the times that Kirk has been compared to HH, the simple fact is that they are extremely different characters.

(If one must pick a Napoleonic-era sea-Captain to compare with Kirk, then Ramage is arguably a closer match in personalities. Though, while Ramage liked being in command, was good at it, knew he was good at it, and was very good at "out-of-the-box" thinking; he probably would have been OK with a worthwhile shore job, or staying home and running the family estates. So your comment still stands.)

Back on track, JTK and HH are both commanders of ships and leaders of men, but their command "styles", their ways of relating to others and, very likely, their personal ambitions / priorities, are totally different. It isn't just the differing cultures and backgrounds talking here, either.

 

[Lord Garth]

The writers of TMP and TWOK were stuck in a corner. Someone like Kirk would've eventually risen to Admiral and they wanted to show time passing, but the audience wanted to see Kirk in command of the Enterprise and since they were going to have a series of movies like they did a series on TV, then Kirk somehow had to get back on the bridge.

So he has to be there, he has to want to be there, and conflict is the root of all drama, so the writers probably figured having where he is versus where he wanted to be was a natural source of conflict.

If there were no movies, then Kirk would've been promoted to Admiral; The End.

But an emergency came up and Kirk had to take command in TMP. An emergency came up and he had to take command in TWOK. They couldn't keep doing that. It would become cliche if done anymore times than that. It would keep making whoever was supposed to be Captain unsuitable for the job they were supposed to be doing. Kirk stealing the Enterprise in TSFS and throwing away the Admiralty completely was the best way to get rid of his promotion once for all.

7thsealord wrote:
Then Kirk seems to make the same, or similar, mistake of accepting promotion / transfer later. I suspect his ego as the main culprit there. He might have thought something like "OK, they really need me for this Admiral-desk-job stuff - again. But it is only temporary and I know how to work the system now - so I won't make the same mistakes again...".

We all know how that often goes. Same mistake, just from an unexpected new direction would be my guess.

Actually I'm going to go with this. I like this better than what I came up with about his being forced into the position. It probably seemed like the right idea the time.

Starfleet probably promoted Kirk to Admiral in the first place because of how he did as Captain and thought he could apply that experience to a larger scale. It might not have been so bad if he could've let go of the Enterprise.

 

[Admiral_Sisko]

Starfleet probably promoted Kirk to Admiral in the first place because of how he did as Captain and thought he could apply that experience to a larger scale. It might not have been so bad if he could've let go of the Enterprise.

This explanation has always made the most sense to me, as well. What I find interesting about the situation is that Kirk seemed not to realize how significant his need to command the Enterprise was until he was put in a situation where he wasn't in command anymore.

As we don't know the events leading up to TWOK, it's conceivable that Kirk no longer believed his was capable of commanding a ship, hence his words to McCoy about space travel being "a game for the young." This fits with his resuming captaincy of the Enterprise only after McCoy and Spock convinced him that doing so was what was best for him.

 

[pengbuzz]

I think that Starfleet wanted the name that Kirk had made, but not the bucking of regulations and rule-bending that went along with it. By keeping him in the upper echelon, they may have hoped to rein him in a bit and at the same time, still retain the "legend" that Kirk became.

 

[Nightowl1701]

As we don't know the events leading up to TWOK, it's conceivable that Kirk no longer believed his was capable of commanding a ship, hence his words to McCoy about space travel being "a game for the young."

Maybe it's got something to do with how/why the Enterprise went from state-of-the-art-flagship to training-vessel-on-the-verge-of-decommissioning in that 11 or so years time. Maybe the second five-year mission ended in disaster, with the Enterprise so totalled that Kirk had to call in favors to have it patched up enough to serve as a training ship instead of being scrapped entirely. And Starfleet, not wanting to throw out the "legend" completely but not wanting him on the front lines either, left it up to him whether to walk out or take a job as a schoolteacher.

 

[YARN]

Kirk's problem is that he is old.
​

If he were not an admiral by this point he would be a failure. A great captain who does not eventually become a great admiral only has the excuse of dying in a great battle.

We can't just meet Kirk on the bridge, like the senior who didn't graduate (and we certainly don't want him dead). We have to meet him as he should be - grown up. Star Trek, however, is not about the admiral of the fleet but the captain and crew of a ship.

So, how to get the captain back in the captain's chair?
​

TMP is ruthlessly honest about how a middle aged man in a mid-life funk might attempt to recapture his glory years - namely, by abusing his position to force out the younger guy who earned his spot. TMP, however, was too honest. We don't go movies to face cold-hard facts and inspect the crumbling clay feet of our heroes. Spock was too cold. Kirk was a jerk. Bones was too crotchety (and honest).

TWoK "gets it" - Kirk is merely a protagonist who has (only initially) failed to respond to the call to adventure. His friends gently coax him back into service. He's not a middle-aged narcissistic jerk desperately clutching to his glories days, but a hero who has forgotten himself. TWoK hangs a lantern on the inappropriateness of the old crew "hoppin' galaxies" by making the film a meditation about growing older, self-doubt, but most importantly how you can still have mojo in your later years.

TMP wants to be important.

TWoK wants to have fun.
​

TMP wants to start us off alienated from our old friends to make us feel good about them getting back to form later (too little, too late).

TWoK emotionally blindsides us by showing us our old friends as we remember them. Kirk get's back in his cleats quickly and without the attendant weirdness and shame of TMP that makes us question the decision. There are stakes in this film, because we care about the characters (for they are as we remembered them). TWoK isn't like some awkward encounter with an ex-girlfriend, but is like a comfy pair of slippers that agonizingly split along a seam in the 3rd act.

 

[CaptainMatt]

Regardless, it is apparent that, in Kirk's case, not everyone is suited for just any oild rank and position in military service. Krik was at home when he commanded a starship-and the Enterprise was his, how you say it, dream job. He was never at his finest than when he sat in that chair commanding his vessel. I feel this is what Spock meant when he said what he did in TWOK.

 

[Admiral_Sisko]

Maybe it's got something to do with how/why the Enterprise went from state-of-the-art-flagship to training-vessel-on-the-verge-of-decommissioning in that 11 or so years time. Maybe the second five-year mission ended in disaster, with the Enterprise so totalled that Kirk had to call in favors to have it patched up enough to serve as a training ship instead of being scrapped entirely. And Starfleet, not wanting to throw out the "legend" completely but not wanting him on the front lines either, left it up to him whether to walk out or take a job as a schoolteacher.

I hadn't considered this, but it makes sense, especially if you consider Admiral Marrow's words to Kirk at the outset of TSFS, and his refusal to allow Kirk to take the ship back to Genesis (though there were other reasons for this, as well).

Though it's never stated on screen prior to TVH, when all of the charges against Kirk and his crew are listed by the Federation President, there does seem to be a perception that Kirk is "damaged goods," that he represents the philosophy of Starfleet as it was during the time period of 2265-70.

Marrow calls Kirk his "best officer," but in the same breath tells him he's on the verge of ruining his career if he tries to save Spock and McCoy. Why would this be, as what we've seen of Kirk on screen leading up to TSFS is his twarting of the V'Ger probe (though Spock and Decker deserve a large share of the credit for this), and his eliminating a significant threat to the Federation in Khan. Neither of these scenarios seems to warrant his being pushed aside, which raises the possibility that something else is behind his being stuck in desk job.

 

[YARN]

Marrow calls Kirk his "best officer," but in the same breath tells him he's on the verge of ruining his career if he tries to save Spock and McCoy. Why would this be, as what we've seen of Kirk on screen leading up to TSFS is his twarting of the V'Ger probe (though Spock and Decker deserve a large share of the credit for this), and his eliminating a significant threat to the Federation in Khan. Neither of these scenarios seems to warrant his being pushed aside, which raises the possibility that something else is behind his being stuck in desk job.

Even admirals don't get to take naval vessels to go on personal trips for bizarre personal reasons to politically embarrassing locations under quarantine. MacArthur, for all his exploits, forgot his place and it cost him his career.

Also, this line emphasizes the stakes involved. If his boss had said, "Kirk, you're one of my best officers, but if you continue in this line, you could face a verbal reprimand," there would be no stakes.

 

[Ian Keldon]

If one considers the novelizations of TMP and TWOK .....

In TMP, it talked about Kirk coming back from the five year mission in an exhausted state. Admiral Nogura had need of a "hero" to present to the public to maintain popular support for Star Fleet. Kirk was the obvious choice, and Nogura went so far as to encourage one of his staff, one Lori Ciana, to begin a relationship with Kirk in order to steer him in this direction.

So, let's consider...

His ship was laid up for a very long period, being rebuilt almost from scratch.
He was recovering from what had been a protracted and extremely demanding assignment.
One of his closest friends / advisors had suddenly removed himself from the picture. Another was soon to leave.

The later two being the result of his accepting the promotion, not causing it, if you read the novelization closely.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Maybe it's got something to do with how/why the Enterprise went from state-of-the-art-flagship to training-vessel-on-the-verge-of-decommissioning in that 11 or so years time. Maybe the second five-year mission ended in disaster, with the Enterprise so totalled that Kirk had to call in favors to have it patched up enough to serve as a training ship instead of being scrapped entirely.

Keep in mind that the Enterprise was at least 30-40 years old at that time.

Though it's never stated on screen prior to TVH, when all of the charges against Kirk and his crew are listed by the Federation President, there does seem to be a perception that Kirk is "damaged goods," that he represents the philosophy of Starfleet as it was during the time period of 2265-70.

The fact that he was up to his neck in the "Genesis Affair" had a lot to do with it as well. Military officers in controversial situations tend to get the shaft, as they make great cover/scapegoats for the politicians.

Marrow calls Kirk his "best officer," but in the same breath tells him he's on the verge of ruining his career if he tries to save Spock and McCoy. Why would this be, as what we've seen of Kirk on screen leading up to TSFS is his twarting of the V'Ger probe (though Spock and Decker deserve a large share of the credit for this), and his eliminating a significant threat to the Federation in Khan. Neither of these scenarios seems to warrant his being pushed aside, which raises the possibility that something else is behind his being stuck in desk job.

1) see above

2) Consider what Kirk was asking Morrow to do: authorize him to take a beat-to-crap ship into highly restricted and VERY politically sensitive space to "save the soul" of his dead Science Officer.

What do you think the response of the US Navy would be to such a request from one of it's captains?

 

[7thsealord]

If one considers the novelizations of TMP and TWOK .....

In TMP, it talked about Kirk coming back from the five year mission in an exhausted state. Admiral Nogura had need of a "hero" to present to the public to maintain popular support for Star Fleet. Kirk was the obvious choice, and Nogura went so far as to encourage one of his staff, one Lori Ciana, to begin a relationship with Kirk in order to steer him in this direction.

So, let's consider...

His ship was laid up for a very long period, being rebuilt almost from scratch.
He was recovering from what had been a protracted and extremely demanding assignment.
One of his closest friends / advisors had suddenly removed himself from the picture. Another was soon to leave.

The later two being the result of his accepting the promotion, not causing it, if you read the novelization closely.

Ummmm. Been a while since I read the novelization, but you have lost me.

My impression was that Spock went off to chase Kolinahr very very early in proceedings. I have difficulty seeing this being a result of Kirk accepting promotion. McCoy's departure later, certainly if you go by the novelization.

 

[7thsealord]

Regardless, it is apparent that, in Kirk's case, not everyone is suited for just any oild rank and position in military service. Krik was at home when he commanded a starship-and the Enterprise was his, how you say it, dream job. He was never at his finest than when he sat in that chair commanding his vessel. I feel this is what Spock meant when he said what he did in TWOK.

Kirk is a prime example of the 'Peter Principle'?

 

[T'Girl]

Starfleet wanted the name that Kirk had made, but not the bucking of regulations and rule-bending that went along with it

Except that wasn't really who Kirk was during TOS. Only during Amok Time did Kirk overtly step outside the professional naval officer role. He might have argued with Starfleet superiors and political lackeys on occasion, but he would then follow the rules that came with his job.

It was only with TSFS that the "bucking of regulations and rule-bending" Kirk was truly born.

the Enterprise went from state-of-the-art-flagship to training-vessel-on-the-verge-of-decommissioning in that 11 or so years time

Keep in mind that the Enterprise was at least 30-40 years old at that time.

Just this, the impression I received was that after the "re-fit," the majority of the original Enterprise was still there. New systems installed, new engines, and a new outer skin yes, but the internal body of the ship was largely untouched.

Let's face it, Jim Kirk beat the living shit out of the Enterprise for five solid years. Every time a attacker hit the shields and the Enterprise bucked and shook, incremental damage was done to her skeleton, her frame. All the times the engines were pushed it aged the structure.

The refit resulted more in a technology demonstrator, than a "state-of-the-art-flagship." By the time TWOK rolled around, she was relegated to being a training ship, taking cadets on safe cruises through the backwaters of the Federation.

And, Kirk's Enterprise was never at any point a flagship.

 

[Admiral_Sisko]

Just this, the impression I received was that after the "re-fit," the majority of the original Enterprise was still there. New systems installed, new engines, and a new outer skin yes, but the internal body of the ship was largely untouched.

Let's face it, Jim Kirk beat the living shit out of the Enterprise for five solid years. Every time a attacker hit the shields and the Enterprise bucked and shook, incremental damage was done to her skeleton, her frame. All the times the engines were pushed it aged the structure.

The refit resulted more in a technology demonstrator, than a "state-of-the-art-flagship." By the time TWOK rolled around, she was relegated to being a training ship, taking cadets on safe cruises through the backwaters of the Federation.

And, Kirk's Enterprise was never at any point a flagship.

Add to this that we also don't know what Kirk/Spock put the ship through during the 12 years that elapsed between films. For anyone who's seen the Paradise Syndrome or the Tholian Web, Spock also wasn't opposed to pushing the ship to its limits when necessary. The Enterprise has always struck me as being more like the classic car that Kirk couldn't/wouldn't trade in than it does a state-of-the-art vessel like Picard's ship.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Ummmm. Been a while since I read the novelization, but you have lost me.

My impression was that Spock went off to chase Kolinahr very very early in proceedings. I have difficulty seeing this being a result of Kirk accepting promotion. McCoy's departure later, certainly if you go by the novelization.

It's been awhile since I had a copy of the novelization, but my recollection was that he agreed with McCoy about Kirk and once Kirk made the decision (or looked as if he were going to make the decision) to accept, Spock felt he had nothing holding him to Starfleet and left.

 

[CoveTom]

A great captain who does not eventually become a great admiral only has the excuse of dying in a great battle.

I've never understood this particular bit of military logic. It doesn't work that way in any other career field. Why can't someone find the job that they excel at and stay there for 30 years if they so choose? Why must it always be "onward and upward" or you're a failure? Someone (say, Kirk) might be a great starship commander but a lousy chief of Starfleet operations. Not everyone is suited for every job.