A First Contact what if question

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Soong-type Android, May 31, 2020.

  1. Soong-type Android

    Soong-type Android Commander Red Shirt

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    I always wanted to know what would have happened to the Enterprise-E crew had Picard succeeded in blowing up the Enterprise and destroying the Borg. Picard ordered the crew leaving on escape pods to find an uninhabited area of Earth to settle on and not to interfere with history. Would they have destroyed all 24th century technology and tried to integrate with the time period? Would their descendants try to avoid detection?

    Just a fun hypothetical.
     
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  2. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I have decided yes
     
  3. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The hermits of Grevette Island. Aliens having to hide for the rest of their lives. Everyone knowing what's ahead from the history books, but they can't participate. It would really be an interesting story.
     
  4. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Grevette Island apparently isn't a real place, and therefor hard to say what the living conditions would have been like. That might just be where the lifeboats were going to land, with the crew then making their way to more populated areas.

    Aquire jobs and new lives. Hard to imagine the crew realistically living in a forest for the rest of their lives.

    In terms of remaining unobtrusive to the population of the time, what did Picard think the people on the surface would make of a huge anti-matter explosion in Earth orbit? Followed by a shower of thousands of tons of debris entering the Earth's atmosphere, with who knows how much reaching the surface.
     
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  5. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    Their descendants would be alright I think, especially if the crew makes sure to create a cover story and might even go as far as to keep their true origin secret from any children.
    TNG was fairly consistent about that period in history being a time of Post-Apocalyptic chaos, so with a lot of records destroyed or lost they could easily claim to be the survivors of a sunken aircraft carrier, for example, or refugees who had fled to that island.
    The appearance of some of the aliens, could be explained away to be body mods or tattoos (Trill, Bajorans, even Vulcans really, if there were any onboard) and possibly be attributed to flares of tribalism during the Atomic horror(which could be used to explain why multiple people would have added the same crinkles to their nose for example)
    Of the more difficult to explain aliens on board, the Bolian officer from Engineering was Borgified iirc. Worf might be SOL and have to live in the forest for the rest of his life (or be very careful about wearing bandanas) Geordi would have to wear sunglasses. Troi passes for human, especially by the time of First Contact (even at her most alien looking in the early seasons of TNG Troi could still pass for a very striking looking human with unusually thick hair and a rare eye condition)
    There's also the possibility that they could contact the Vulcans and be resettled to an unimportant planet and put under quarantaine until the 24th century.
     
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  6. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Vulcans of that time think time travel can't happen, imagine their reaction XD
     
  7. Soong-type Android

    Soong-type Android Commander Red Shirt

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    Indeed. The non-human crew members would be another point to consider in this situation. Perhaps it would have been possible to construct some basic warp capable vessels to return them to their home worlds.
     
  8. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Commodore Commodore

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    Well if they got to the shuttlebay, they would have some warp capable craft that could take the more alien crew home, and have them blend in, or find an un occupyed planet and live out there lives.
    Grevette Island may have just been a place to land and then decide what to do.
     
  9. The CW

    The CW Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They would've sent the Enterprise into the sun on autopilot, then settled down with the natives and become their own ancestors. So say we all. ;)
     
  10. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    I mean if you have to hide as a near-human Alien on Earth then the aftermath of a Nuclear Holocaust that likely left a good portion of the population scarred and deformed would be one of the easier times to blend in.
    In a culture like that it's possible that a person refusing to take off their head covering/gloves/shoes/whatever (depending on were they differ from Earthlings) in public because it hides "a nasty burn scar I got in the war" would not be looked upon as strange or unusual.
    Sure it doesn't explain stuff like Bolians, but it's possible that Dr. Crusher or any other surviving medical stuff might have taken some of that advanced technology along that allows them to undergo easy surgery to look human.
    Also assuming they had Bajoran crew members, I'm not sure I'd trust them with going to 21st century Bajor and not attempting to prevent the Cardassian Occupation by changing the history of their people.

    Though if it's a nice, remote tropical/subtropical island it might be preferable to stay there and slumming it in the forest rather than attempting to join civilization and end up with the Mad Max people from the trial scene of Encounter at Farpoint...
     
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  11. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hard to tell if Picard's crew included any truly weird faces like those in nuKirk's team in ST Beyond. Basically, whatever we got on screen during the run of TNG could all be dismissed as facial jewelry and decorative paint, and part of the scenery of the day, even if we steer away from a Judge Dredd style depiction of bubbly-faced nuclear mutants.

    I trust Picard's team could hitch a ride off Earth at any point if the need arose. They would have communications tech in their lifepods, and could contact the usual suspects who zoom through Sol on their warp-speed errands: Mott could join a Bolian plumbing expedition, Worf could ask passing Tellarites for a chance to get really argumentative on the way to Qo'noS, and so forth. "Carbon Creek" and the like are pretty clear on Earth's skies in the centuries before First Contact actually being chock full of UFOs, and Picard's folks would be aware of that.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  12. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    Absolutely not! If you remember the movie, it appeared Senior staff were open to the world to spill the beans on Post - historical events and being apart of those events. There was a level of arrogance I never saw with TOS which I found very dangerous and with that valuable knowledge TNG had; I fear they may pull an "Insurrection" in that timeline and dictate what they thought was acceptable based on their "Grandeur" principles. I find it hypocritical for the CO Movie Picard* to order the crew to do something when everyone including himself was interfering with history.

    *That man impersonating Jean-Luc Picard in those awful TNG movies was not the Jean-Luc Picard I loved and remembered in Star Trek: The Next Generation. I had a problem with his Hollywood in the moment ethics. This mindset bothered me again with ST:Picard where the actor is having too much influence in the character than the writers are.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  13. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, Picard, Riker et al. seemed to be aware that Cochrane's moment of fame had originally gone completely unwitnessed. Apparently nobody really knew what had happened during the first warp flight and the first human-to-Vulcan handwave, so the heroes would be free to write their own version, confident that that one, too, would never be read by the public. Heck, short of decapitating Cochrane and using his head as a Ready Room paperweight, it's difficult to see what type of meddling the heroes could have hoped to do to actually damage the timeline.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    Was Mott even on-board the Enterprise E? There don't seem to be any civilians on board that ship and Mott's shop seemed very spa-like, the type of indulgence the Galaxy class was famous for, but the Sovereign seemed to lack. It also seems like Guinan wasn't around any longer, considering her only appearance after Generations is at Will and Deanna's wedding.
    So I always assumed the E was primarily a warship with only Star fleet personnel on-board.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Difficult to tell whether the E-E carried civilians. Those never showed up on the E-D, either, unless the plot specifically called for that: only folks in uniform (and Deanna Troi!) were supposed to enjoy access to the Places Where Stuff Happens.

    Also, "we are evacuating the civilians to safe sections of the ship / to lifepods and shuttles" never was part of the E-D dialogue, in the assorted boarding or breaching events there, so absence of such in this movie is again less than telling.

    We don't know specifically whether Mott or Guinan were aboard this time around, and it's a fairly good bet that Guinan at least was not, else she would have gone to her usual histrionics about the Borg and altered timelines and played the anti-Sloane in the relevant scenes. But the presence of a civilian barber, and a civilian florist, and five civilian waiters, and a dozen civilian engineering support personnel, might be standard for all starships for all we know. At least the presence of families appears to be, considering ships as dissimilar as the E-D and the Saratoga had those. (And although Picard said he was facing a challenge on the E-D because he was scared of children, it doesn't follow he wouldn't have been frozen with fear for the same reason aboard all his previous commands as well...)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    FC said just the opposite, Earth fully recovered in a half century. Suggesting that any chaos and "mad max" was probably few and far between.

    I doubt Picard would send his crew to a region with such a society.
     
  17. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    At least from behind the scenes there seemed to be the general idea among the creative teams that after the emergence of the Borg and the outbreak and the outbreak of the Dominion War families on board was considered a "experiment that failed".
    The Spvereign class was designed to be able to combat threats like the Borg and didn't nearly have the same amount of amenities the Galaxy class had.

    I also found a source that according to Ron Moore there were no kids, at least, on board the Enterprise E:
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Memory_Alpha:AOL_chats/Ronald_D._Moore/ron076.txt

    I'd also say we would have seen at least some civilians scurrying for the escape pods in First Contact, but we only saw Starfleet Personnel. During the show, and even during the climactic crash of the Saucer Section we frequently saw civilians in the corridors or lounges. In contrast we didn't see a single one on board the ship during FC-NEM. It's also worth noting that the extras in the movies look a lot more utilitarian/military than they did during the show's run, so the good hair dresses might have indeed left.
    I do however see the possibility that civilians and families might still have been onboard vessels that served a primarily exploratory, scientific or diplomatic function.
    I mean I doubt they would have scrapped all those Galaxy class ships with their luxuries, they'd probably just would have relegated them to safer missions (first contacts, carrying diplomats, exploring nebulae, that sort of thing).
     
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  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Excellent point! :vulcan:

    It's worth noting, though, that the E-E in this movie was on a mission of year-long shakedown. Perhaps the civilians embarked later on? Guinan wasn't aboard the E-D during the first season, either (even if the initial episodes featuring her were a bit ambiguous on whether she had just arrived or whether she had somehow hidden behind the potted plants for a year).

    That the E-E would be dedicated to combat is a bit dubious when we note that she was specifically excluded from combat against the Borg, and never seen fighting the Dominion, either. Yes, Picard may have been considered untrustworthy, or more valuable in other roles, but that wouldn't have stopped Starfleet from sending the ship (and placing Picard aboard another), or from employing sister ships. Perhaps it's the Sovereign class that is the failed experiment in the end?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    How long would this last? Over time the 21st century would become more real than what they left behind in the 24th century. Many would have only been in starfleet a few years prior to abandoning ship.

    So years later, obeying an order from a barely remembered commanding officer, verses using their knowledge and abilities to help their new families, their new communities.
    The Saratoga (Sisko's prior ship) would have had even fewer amenities than the Enterprise-E, but we know it had family members. The Enterprise-E would have been designed for combat just like most of the starfleet vessel we see, but starfleet vessels seem to be assign to a asortment of mission types as needed. No we didn't see families, but much of the time we didn't see them on the Enteprise-D either.
    Highly capable of combat yes, but it's hard to imagine that big ship just sitting around for months on end waiting for a combat assigment to respond to.
     
  20. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    From the script:
    Plus Cochrane and his friends lived in shanties and tents, who's to say there weren't any dangerous elements around that showed up regularly.
    Sure, after the Vulcans showed up Earth recovered within 50 years (some earlier episodes of TNG suggest that it was gradual and not all places on Earth recovered at the same pace)
    And 50 years is a long time.

    I agree that Picard would have chosen a place close to "safe" regions, but there's still a risk. If it's between tents next to a missile silo in Montana where some remnants of the Mad Max people might bother me (no matter how small that chance) or tents on a tropical island where I can be pretty sure that they wont, I'd take the island (if it was tropical/subtropical, you are right in saying that we don't know, But then again, why would Picard have sent them to a barren piece of rock in the south Pacific?)

    I mean in the movie they discuss that the Enterprise E is the ship best equipped to combat the Borg threat, but are relegated to the Neutral Zone because Starfleet Command doesn't trust Picard in this situation. And that's part of the reason why they then go fight the Borg anyway.
    As for the civilians boarding later, you have a point there. Theoretically they could also have taken the time to unload the civilians and non-vital personnel at a Starbase or Colony before they went to fight the Borg, like the Odyssey did on Deep Space Nine before engaging the Diminion Ships. So Mott and Guinan and all the little babyleins were sitting around on some Space Station somewhere between the Neutral Zone and Earth while the Enterprise was battling Borg in the 21st century.
    Truth be told that might have happened during, at least, Nemesis as well. No need to take the kids to battle the Romulans.
    Now I want a spinnoff movie about Guinan and Mott babysitting the Enterprise's children during First Contact/Nemesis.:lol:

    I didn't say that the Enterprise E was there just for combat related missions, just that the ship was designed with the increasing threats towards the Federation in mind, and would (that issue with Picard and the Borg notwithstanding) be among the first to be called on for missions like that, while there's likely ships who are more geared towards other missions as well.