A few things to discuss about Kes

[Lynx]

You seem to favor characters who aren't purely heroic or villainous, but have a more nuanced outlook.

In fact, that's what I do.

I actually like many different sorts of characters. They may not be the heroes or most perfect characters but they have something special which makes me like them. i'm not exactly sure what it is but it's something which make them deviate from the usual.

It's the same with music. It doesn't matter if it is a heavy rock song or a ballad, it must have a special "it" which makes me like it.

I could see THAT EPISODE and 7/C as disastrously misguided efforts to bring back Kes and create a relationship for Seven... just poorly done. I mean, even the much better managed DS9 had missteps: destroying the Ferengi as a culture, replacing a Klingon leader whose motivation was complex to a far more conventional one (and in a ridiculous manner), and that Ezri/Bashir pairing. The only thing they did right with the latter is having it begin off-screen, because they knew we didn't give a rat's posterior about those two as a couple.

"Disastrous misguided" is actually an understatement.
In "the Kes case", I can't understand why they did bother to bring back the character only to destroy her. Was it because of a letter campaign which was going at that time? If that's the case, they had two options:
1. Bring back the character, just like some fans wanted.
2. Ignore the fans and don't bother at all.

Option 2 should have been the most logical for them since the don't seem to care much about the opinion of the fans. But they did choose option 3, to destroy the character. Why?

In "the Chakotay/Seven case", why did they create a relationship without any chemistry and nothing in previous episodes (what I know) whichhad any hints about such a relationship. Was it just to "show the finger" to those persistent "J/C-ers" who for many years had wanted a Janeway/Chakotay relationship?

If we look at "the Kim case" in which Harry Kim has been bound to be "the eternal Ensign", not only in the VOY series but decades later as well, then I get the feeling that their destructive actions in those cases aren't just isolated misguided actions.

You lasted longer than I did.

Oh, dear. I begin to lose my edge!
I've must have been tired that evening.

It is interesting that a character as kind and benevolent as Kes shares your favor with Trek's resident rogues.

I don't consider Garak, Quark, Gowron and Q to be "rogues", rather they are on a line which Iron Maiden call "the thin liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine between love and hate" or more correctly the thin line between good and bad.

Kes is definitely a good character but in the same way determined to stand up for what she think is right, Garak is controversial with a dark background story but still someone with a sense for justice, Gowron a somewhat manipulating but also a strong-willed and brave Klingon leader, Quark a manipulative salesman looking for profit but still with a sense for justice and even kindness and Q somewhat obnoxious in his omnipotence but still with a sense of fair play.

Actually five characters with that special "it" whic I often look for and appreciate.

We aim to please.

Which is very much appreciated!

 

[fireproof78]

Option 2 should have been the most logical for them since the don't seem to care much about the opinion of the fans. But they did choose option 3, to destroy the character. Why

Because they didn't see it as a destruction but an opportunity to explore perspective and how perspective shapes poor responses at times. It's a common theme in fiction to explore the nature of power and impact on mortals.

It's not destruction to explore different aspects of a character, including failure to adapt. Hell, we saw it with Barclay and Riker. Power is something Trek treats as a cautionary tale. It is very much consistent with mythology, Shakespeare and classical literature that has often inspired Trek.

 

[Oddish]

I actually like many different sorts of characters. They may not be the heroes or most perfect characters but they have something special which makes me like them. i'm not exactly sure what it is but it's something which make them deviate from the usual.

Nothing wrong with that.

It's the same with music. It doesn't matter if it is a heavy rock song or a ballad, it must have a special "it" which makes me like it.

I'm the same way. "Eclectic" doesn't begin to describe my musical tastes.

"Disastrous misguided" is actually an understatement.
In "the Kes case", I can't understand why they did bother to bring back the character only to destroy her. Was it because of a letter campaign which was going at that time? If that's the case, they had two options:
1. Bring back the character, just like some fans wanted.
2. Ignore the fans and don't bother at all.

I don't know. With Harry, when people started to wonder why didn't he have a box on his chair, it seems to me like they had four options in all:
1. Have a proper promotion ceremony for him, or do it in a quieter and more intimate fashion (like the way I proposed).
2. Just do it quietly, i.e. have him have a hollow pip on his collar one day.
3. Ignore the complaints completely.
4. Rub the viewers' nose in the fact that Harry's not getting promoted and there's NOTHING they can do about it.

As seen in "Nightingale", they chose #4.

Option 2 should have been the most logical for them since the don't seem to care much about the opinion of the fans. But they did choose option 3, to destroy the character. Why?

It was either very clueless or mean-spirited. And given what they pulled with Harry, mean-spiritedness seems to be their nature.

In "the Chakotay/Seven case", why did they create a relationship without any chemistry and nothing in previous episodes (what I know) whichhad any hints about such a relationship. Was it just to "show the finger" to those persistent "J/C-ers" who for many years had wanted a Janeway/Chakotay relationship?

I don't know... seems like "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk" covered that. Instead of her hunky flesh and blood first officer, Janeway settles for a very sophisticated version of a vibrator.

Still, if they're capable of delivering one slap across the J/C-ers' face, no reason for them not to administer two.

If we look at "the Kim case" in which Harry Kim has been bound to be "the eternal Ensign", not only in the VOY series but decades later as well, then I get the feeling that their destructive actions in those cases aren't just isolated misguided actions.

The Kurtzman crew had no reason to have any grudge against Garrett Wang. But I do know a lot of people take pleasure in the whole "eternal ensign" business. Maybe this was an effort to avoid upsetting them. And then, with the "heroes wall", they throw the other side a bone as well.

I don't consider Garak, Quark, Gowron and Q to be "rogues", rather they are on a line which Iron Maiden call "the thin liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine between love and hate" or more correctly the thin line between good and bad.

Maybe that's why I call them "rogues". They're charming, but you don't want your daughter dating them.

It's not destruction to explore different aspects of a character, including failure to adapt. Hell, we saw it with Barclay and Riker. Power is something Trek treats as a cautionary tale. It is very much consistent with mythology, Shakespeare and classical literature that has often inspired Trek.

Maybe, but Kes never seemed the type.

 

[Detached Nacelle]

In "the Chakotay/Seven case", why did they create a relationship without any chemistry and nothing in previous episodes (what I know) whichhad any hints about such a relationship. Was it just to "show the finger" to those persistent "J/C-ers" who for many years had wanted a Janeway/Chakotay relationship?

Robert Beltran insisted on it and forced them because he's a dick and his character should have been killed off when he started just phoning it in in season 4.

 

[Oddish]

Robert Beltran insisted on it and forced them because he's a dick and his character should have been killed off when he started just phoning it in in season 4.

Whether he was phoning it in, or they just wouldn't give him anything good... yeah, you're probably right. Honestly, they could have dispensed with him and Harry both. Not because the actors were bad or the characters lacked potential, they were just being underutilized. And TOS, TNG, and ENT all ran fine with a seven-character core.

 

[Lynx]

Because they didn't see it as a destruction but an opportunity to explore perspective and how perspective shapes poor responses at times. It's a common theme in fiction to explore the nature of power and impact on mortals.

It's not destruction to explore different aspects of a character, including failure to adapt. Hell, we saw it with Barclay and Riker. Power is something Trek treats as a cautionary tale. It is very much consistent with mythology, Shakespeare and classical literature that has often inspired Trek.

I see it as a destruction.

They bring back a characteer who they had dumped and for two years have done all they could to make the viewers forget just to destroy the character.

Considering a letter campaign which was going at that time and considering what happened in Endgame and how the Harry Kim character was treated, I see those act as destructive and mean spirited.

Riker and Barclay were never ruined as characters. They were in deep trouble a couple of times but they were always back to normal later on and never portrayed as evil demons or pathetic wrecks.

Nothing wrong with that.

No, it's just my taste.

I'm the same way. "Eclectic" doesn't begin to describe my musical tastes.

I'm basically a hard rock, heavy metal person and rock is my favorite music but i can find gems in other musical styles as well.

I don't know. With Harry, when people started to wonder why didn't he have a box on his chair, it seems to me like they had four options in all:
1. Have a proper promotion ceremony for him, or do it in a quieter and more intimate fashion (like the way I proposed).
2. Just do it quietly, i.e. have him have a hollow pip on his collar one day.
3. Ignore the complaints completely.
4. Rub the viewers' nose in the fact that Harry's not getting promoted and there's NOTHING they can do about it.

As seen in "Nightingale", they chose #4.

They do have the bad taste of choosing the worst alternative all the time, haven't they?

It was either very clueless or mean-spirited. And given what they pulled with Harry, mean-spiritedness seems to be their nature.

That's the impression I get too.

I don't know... seems like "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk" covered that. Instead of her hunky flesh and blood first officer, Janeway settles for a very sophisticated version of a vibrator.

Still, if they're capable of delivering one slap across the J/C-ers' face, no reason for them not to administer two.

Fair Haven and Spirit Folks were downright crap as I see it. Two episodes which almost made me fell asleep.

If I had been a fan of VOY's seasons 4-7 and watched them from time to time, i would probably have skipped those episodes in the same way I use to skip TNG's Shades Of Gray and Lessons.

As for Janeway, I liked her in seasons 1-3 but not in the later seasons. I think that they really messed up the character.

The Kurtzman crew had no reason to have any grudge against Garrett Wang. But I do know a lot of people take pleasure in the whole "eternal ensign" business. Maybe this was an effort to avoid upsetting them. And then, with the "heroes wall", they throw the other side a bone as well.

I must admit that I find such actions childish.

Maybe that's why I call them "rogues". They're charming, but you don't want your daughter dating them.

Hmmmmm........why not?
Garak seem to be a nice and caring guy, something which could be seen in his relationship with Tora Ziyal, Gowron is a mighty Klingon politician and Quark is a wealthy businessman.

And Q is omnipotent and can give my daughter everything if she wish so why not?

Maybe, but Kes never seemed the type.

No, she wasn't. The monster in that episode in season six has no resemblance at all to Kes.

Robert Beltran insisted on it and forced them because he's a dick and his character should have been killed off when he started just phoning it in in season 4.

Unfortunately, I must state that I do find your comments about Beltran rude. in what way was he a "dick"? For telling the truth about those in charge of the show?

If he insisted on that relationship, it was a mistake and in that case he should have suggested it long before it happened, maybe in season 4, 5 or six instead of the last possible minutes of the series.

And I don't think that those in charge were forced. They were probably all too happy to fulfil Beltran's possible wishes and use it as a slap in the face of the J/C-ers.

As for Beltran, sometimes I get the impression that some people dislike him because he had the guts to tell the world what he thought about those in charge.

I can also understand Beltran's frustration. Chakotay was a great character with a good premise who was actually quite good in seasons 1,2 and 3 and then he's shoved aside with most of the others when VOY was turned into VSNS (Voyager-The Seven Of Nine Show).

Personally I'm happy that they didn't kill him of, it was bad enough with Kes (destroyed), Kim (humiliated for ever) and Neelix who they dumped on a crappy asteroid in the middle of nowhere.

Whether he was phoning it in, or they just wouldn't give him anything good... yeah, you're probably right. Honestly, they could have dispensed with him and Harry both. Not because the actors were bad or the characters lacked potential, they were just being underutilized. And TOS, TNG, and ENT all ran fine with a seven-character core.

Here I have to disagree. Chakotay and Kim were good characters who deserved better than to be killed off. As it is now, theres always hope that the current trend in TrekLit with all that chaacter destruction will change and that we will se new stories about those characters in some better future. It's bad enough as it is with Kes, Garak and Gowron and even Janeway and the fact that I have to check Memory Beta everytime I consider to buy a Star Trek book to avoid being terribly disappointed.

 

[Oddish]

Personally I'm happy that they didn't kill him of, it was bad enough with Kes (destroyed), Kim (humiliated for ever) and Neelix who they dumped on a crappy asteroid in the middle of nowhere.

That's a frequent point of disagreement between us. I would personally have rather given him a properly glorious send-off. Something like, we're in a position where one person must sacrifice themself to save the ship. Janeway decides, in typical Janeway fashion, that it falls to her. As she's getting ready, Chakotay phaser-stuns her and takes her place. By the time she recovers, it's too late. She later finds a message from him, declaring that he never stopped loving her.

In one shot, we've shown the audience that no one is safe, given Janeway a Tuvix-level emotional hit (while maintaining her integrity), taken Chakotay's character from meh to unforgettable, and removed an actor who was proving difficult. And they could have still used Tom or Harry on PRO.

Here I have to disagree. Chakotay and Kim were good characters who deserved better than to be killed off.

On that we agree, actually. I'm just the type who finds it better to do away with (not necessarily kill) a character than leave them to stagnate. Or leave them in a position where I see no happy ending for them.

As for Beltran, sometimes I get the impression that some people dislike him because he had the guts to tell the world what he thought about those in charge.

People who are bad at their jobs don't like it when that fact is pointed out.

No, she wasn't. The monster in that episode in season six has no resemblance at all to Kes.

Indeed not.

Garak seem to be a nice and caring guy, something which could be seen in his relationship with Tora Ziyal, Gowron is a mighty Klingon politician and Quark is a wealthy businessman.

And Q is omnipotent and can give my daughter everything if she wish so why not?

Garak regularly kills people in cold blood, Gowron is in a position that invites violent death, Quark likes his women to run around naked and chew his food for him... and Q might turn you into a golden retriever for a giggle.

Fair Haven and Spirit Folks were downright crap as I see it. Two episodes which almost made me fell asleep.

Janeway's "delete the wife" line was pretty funny... plus, we see her softer, more playful side. Kate Mulgrew plays a great bad-a**, but she's not limited to that.

If I had been a fan of VOY's seasons 4-7 and watched them from time to time, i would probably have skipped those episodes in the same way I use to skip TNG's Shades Of Gray and Lessons.

There's ones that I skip too. And some I should re-watch.

They do have the bad taste of choosing the worst alternative all the time, haven't they?

Not all the time. But in the matter of neglected characters, that they do.

 

[fireproof78]

Riker and Barclay were never ruined as characters. They were in deep trouble a couple of times but they were always back to normal later on and never portrayed as evil demons or pathetic wrecks.

I disagree.

see it as a destruction.

Yes, I know. I do not agree at all.

 

[Lynx]

That's a frequent point of disagreement between us. I would personally have rather given him a properly glorious send-off. Something like, we're in a position where one person must sacrifice themself to save the ship. Janeway decides, in typical Janeway fashion, that it falls to her. As she's getting ready, Chakotay phaser-stuns her and takes her place. By the time she recovers, it's too late. She later finds a message from him, declaring that he never stopped loving her.

In one shot, we've shown the audience that no one is safe, given Janeway a Tuvix-level emotional hit (while maintaining her integrity), taken Chakotay's character from meh to unforgettable, and removed an actor who was proving difficult. And they could have still used Tom or Harry on PRO.

Yes, we do disagree here.

I don't like to waste good characters who can be used for better purposes. As a matter of fact, i actually spared a villain in a story I wrote which I was planning to kill of but changed my mind, thinking that "he can be used in coming stories".

Characters like Chakotay, Kim and Kes were too good to be wasted. It would have been much better to write good stories for them.

On that we agree, actually. I'm just the type who finds it better to do away with (not necessarily kill) a character than leave them to stagnate. Or leave them in a position where I see no happy ending for them.

And I rather see possibilities to save the characters and bring them back to their former glory.
If i was in charge of a show like VOY, I would tell the writers: "You are supposed to do a good job and come up with good stories for all characters. So do your job!"

An example of good writing is Greg Cox VOY book The Black Shore which is very exciting and all the main characters are involved in the action.

People who are bad at their jobs don't like it when that fact is pointed out.

No, and in some cases they take revenge on them who dare to criticize them.

Indeed not.

I agree!

Garak regularly kills people in cold blood, Gowron is in a position that invites violent death, Quark likes his women to run around naked and chew his food for him... and Q might turn you into a golden retriever for a giggle.

But maybe my daughter is fond of dogs and like to experience how the life of a golden retriever would be!

In fact, the scene in the TNG episode True Q where Q turns Dr. Crusher into a dog is hilarious.

Anyway, Garak did have a softer side too and would have treated Tora Ziyal very good if she had survived. Gowron is a tough Klingon who could be a bit difficult, buta never mind Jadzia Dax married Worf!

Quark did have a bad attitude to women but he could be nice to them too.

Anyway, I still find garak, Gowron, Quark and Q charming in some way and great characters too. They have that special "it" when it comes to characters I like.

Janeway's "delete the wife" line was pretty funny... plus, we see her softer, more playful side. Kate Mulgrew plays a great bad-a**, but she's not limited to that.

Janeway had her good scenes in those episodes.
But the episodes were actually silly and quite boring.

There's ones that I skip too. And some I should re-watch.

As for VOY, even if I like seasons 1, 2 and 3, two episodes which I mostly skip are Season 1:s Emanations which I find incredible boring and season 3:s Still Life. Ooops, sorry, the name of the episode is Real Life which I also find boring and quite meaningless.

"Still Life" is an Iron Maiden song and a good one too. Maybe the songs chorus "Nightmaaaaares" is the reason why I often mess it upp with the episode Real Life which actually turned into a nightmare for The Doctor and a meaningless one too. He could just have pushed the reset bottom and started the program again with some changes.

Not all the time. But in the matter of neglected characters, that they do.

Unfortunately it has been so in some cases.

I disagree.


Yes, I know. I do not agree at all.

We obviously have very different opinions on those matters.

 

[fireproof78]

We obviously have very different opinions on those matters.

Probably because I do not think characters can be destroyed.

 

[Lynx]

Probably because I do not think characters can be destroyed.

Unfortunately they can and Iv'e seen it happen many times. Too many times actually and sometimes for no reason at all.

 

[fireproof78]

Unfortunately they can and Iv'e seen it happen many times. Too many times actually and sometimes for no reason at all.

Agree to disagree. Destruction implies a loss of a thing before and the thing I've enjoyed, be it a character, show, or music, continues to exist.

 

[Oddish]

I don't like to waste good characters who can be used for better purposes.

Maybe... but sometimes a glorious death IS a greater purpose.

Plus, you know, Star Trek. If a deceased character is potentially useful again, you can bring them back. Picard might call death "the ultimate boundary", but on Trek, it's pretty porous.

Characters like Chakotay, Kim and Kes were too good to be wasted. It would have been much better to write good stories for them.

That goes without saying. For me, when you have a foundering character...
Best solution: Salvage them. Best seen with Bashir on DS9.
Acceptable solution: Eliminate them. Best seen with the younger Borg kids on VOY, or Tasha on TNG.
Worst solution: Just let them stagnate. Best seen with Harry on VOY, or Travis on ENT.

An example of good writing is Greg Cox VOY book The Black Shore which is very exciting and all the main characters are involved in the action.

I'll keep an eye out for it.

No, and in some cases they take revenge on them who dare to criticize them.

Nothing new. Cowards and crybabies have been silencing their opposition since time immemorial.

In fact, the scene in the TNG episode True Q where Q turns Dr. Crusher into a dog is hilarious.

Exactly the scene I was thinking of.

Janeway had her good scenes in those episodes.
But the episodes were actually silly and quite boring.

Maybe. But if you start "SPIRIT FOLK" at 11:49:34 on New Year's Eve, Harry smooches the cow at midnight.

Ooops, sorry, the name of the episode is Real Life which I also find boring and quite meaningless.

Because of the Big Red Reset Button. If you're going to have a character go through s painful moment of character growth, it HAS to matter in later episodes.

That plus the Doc missed the point. He was trying to experience normal everyday family life. Kids expiring might have been fairly normal back in the pre-vax days, but it's not now. The Doc should have just told the computer to reduce Belle's injury to something she would recover from. Nursing your kid through an injury IS a normal experience.

We obviously have very different opinions on those matters.

But that's the fun of it. It creates the potential for rational debate.