A few things to discuss about Kes

[Lynx]

You seem to favor characters who aren't purely heroic or villainous, but have a more nuanced outlook.

In fact, that's what I do.

I actually like many different sorts of characters. They may not be the heroes or most perfect characters but they have something special which makes me like them. i'm not exactly sure what it is but it's something which make them deviate from the usual.

It's the same with music. It doesn't matter if it is a heavy rock song or a ballad, it must have a special "it" which makes me like it.

I could see THAT EPISODE and 7/C as disastrously misguided efforts to bring back Kes and create a relationship for Seven... just poorly done. I mean, even the much better managed DS9 had missteps: destroying the Ferengi as a culture, replacing a Klingon leader whose motivation was complex to a far more conventional one (and in a ridiculous manner), and that Ezri/Bashir pairing. The only thing they did right with the latter is having it begin off-screen, because they knew we didn't give a rat's posterior about those two as a couple.

"Disastrous misguided" is actually an understatement.
In "the Kes case", I can't understand why they did bother to bring back the character only to destroy her. Was it because of a letter campaign which was going at that time? If that's the case, they had two options:
1. Bring back the character, just like some fans wanted.
2. Ignore the fans and don't bother at all.

Option 2 should have been the most logical for them since the don't seem to care much about the opinion of the fans. But they did choose option 3, to destroy the character. Why?

In "the Chakotay/Seven case", why did they create a relationship without any chemistry and nothing in previous episodes (what I know) whichhad any hints about such a relationship. Was it just to "show the finger" to those persistent "J/C-ers" who for many years had wanted a Janeway/Chakotay relationship?

If we look at "the Kim case" in which Harry Kim has been bound to be "the eternal Ensign", not only in the VOY series but decades later as well, then I get the feeling that their destructive actions in those cases aren't just isolated misguided actions.

You lasted longer than I did.

Oh, dear. I begin to lose my edge!
I've must have been tired that evening.

It is interesting that a character as kind and benevolent as Kes shares your favor with Trek's resident rogues.

I don't consider Garak, Quark, Gowron and Q to be "rogues", rather they are on a line which Iron Maiden call "the thin liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine between love and hate" or more correctly the thin line between good and bad.

Kes is definitely a good character but in the same way determined to stand up for what she think is right, Garak is controversial with a dark background story but still someone with a sense for justice, Gowron a somewhat manipulating but also a strong-willed and brave Klingon leader, Quark a manipulative salesman looking for profit but still with a sense for justice and even kindness and Q somewhat obnoxious in his omnipotence but still with a sense of fair play.

Actually five characters with that special "it" whic I often look for and appreciate.

We aim to please.

Which is very much appreciated!

 

[fireproof78]

Option 2 should have been the most logical for them since the don't seem to care much about the opinion of the fans. But they did choose option 3, to destroy the character. Why

Because they didn't see it as a destruction but an opportunity to explore perspective and how perspective shapes poor responses at times. It's a common theme in fiction to explore the nature of power and impact on mortals.

It's not destruction to explore different aspects of a character, including failure to adapt. Hell, we saw it with Barclay and Riker. Power is something Trek treats as a cautionary tale. It is very much consistent with mythology, Shakespeare and classical literature that has often inspired Trek.

 

[Oddish]

I actually like many different sorts of characters. They may not be the heroes or most perfect characters but they have something special which makes me like them. i'm not exactly sure what it is but it's something which make them deviate from the usual.

Nothing wrong with that.

It's the same with music. It doesn't matter if it is a heavy rock song or a ballad, it must have a special "it" which makes me like it.

I'm the same way. "Eclectic" doesn't begin to describe my musical tastes.

"Disastrous misguided" is actually an understatement.
In "the Kes case", I can't understand why they did bother to bring back the character only to destroy her. Was it because of a letter campaign which was going at that time? If that's the case, they had two options:
1. Bring back the character, just like some fans wanted.
2. Ignore the fans and don't bother at all.

I don't know. With Harry, when people started to wonder why didn't he have a box on his chair, it seems to me like they had four options in all:
1. Have a proper promotion ceremony for him, or do it in a quieter and more intimate fashion (like the way I proposed).
2. Just do it quietly, i.e. have him have a hollow pip on his collar one day.
3. Ignore the complaints completely.
4. Rub the viewers' nose in the fact that Harry's not getting promoted and there's NOTHING they can do about it.

As seen in "Nightingale", they chose #4.

Option 2 should have been the most logical for them since the don't seem to care much about the opinion of the fans. But they did choose option 3, to destroy the character. Why?

It was either very clueless or mean-spirited. And given what they pulled with Harry, mean-spiritedness seems to be their nature.

In "the Chakotay/Seven case", why did they create a relationship without any chemistry and nothing in previous episodes (what I know) whichhad any hints about such a relationship. Was it just to "show the finger" to those persistent "J/C-ers" who for many years had wanted a Janeway/Chakotay relationship?

I don't know... seems like "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk" covered that. Instead of her hunky flesh and blood first officer, Janeway settles for a very sophisticated version of a vibrator.

Still, if they're capable of delivering one slap across the J/C-ers' face, no reason for them not to administer two.

If we look at "the Kim case" in which Harry Kim has been bound to be "the eternal Ensign", not only in the VOY series but decades later as well, then I get the feeling that their destructive actions in those cases aren't just isolated misguided actions.

The Kurtzman crew had no reason to have any grudge against Garrett Wang. But I do know a lot of people take pleasure in the whole "eternal ensign" business. Maybe this was an effort to avoid upsetting them. And then, with the "heroes wall", they throw the other side a bone as well.

I don't consider Garak, Quark, Gowron and Q to be "rogues", rather they are on a line which Iron Maiden call "the thin liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine between love and hate" or more correctly the thin line between good and bad.

Maybe that's why I call them "rogues". They're charming, but you don't want your daughter dating them.

It's not destruction to explore different aspects of a character, including failure to adapt. Hell, we saw it with Barclay and Riker. Power is something Trek treats as a cautionary tale. It is very much consistent with mythology, Shakespeare and classical literature that has often inspired Trek.

Maybe, but Kes never seemed the type.

 

[Detached Nacelle]

In "the Chakotay/Seven case", why did they create a relationship without any chemistry and nothing in previous episodes (what I know) whichhad any hints about such a relationship. Was it just to "show the finger" to those persistent "J/C-ers" who for many years had wanted a Janeway/Chakotay relationship?

Robert Beltran insisted on it and forced them because he's a dick and his character should have been killed off when he started just phoning it in in season 4.

 

[Oddish]

Robert Beltran insisted on it and forced them because he's a dick and his character should have been killed off when he started just phoning it in in season 4.

Whether he was phoning it in, or they just wouldn't give him anything good... yeah, you're probably right. Honestly, they could have dispensed with him and Harry both. Not because the actors were bad or the characters lacked potential, they were just being underutilized. And TOS, TNG, and ENT all ran fine with a seven-character core.

 

[Lynx]

Because they didn't see it as a destruction but an opportunity to explore perspective and how perspective shapes poor responses at times. It's a common theme in fiction to explore the nature of power and impact on mortals.

It's not destruction to explore different aspects of a character, including failure to adapt. Hell, we saw it with Barclay and Riker. Power is something Trek treats as a cautionary tale. It is very much consistent with mythology, Shakespeare and classical literature that has often inspired Trek.

I see it as a destruction.

They bring back a characteer who they had dumped and for two years have done all they could to make the viewers forget just to destroy the character.

Considering a letter campaign which was going at that time and considering what happened in Endgame and how the Harry Kim character was treated, I see those act as destructive and mean spirited.

Riker and Barclay were never ruined as characters. They were in deep trouble a couple of times but they were always back to normal later on and never portrayed as evil demons or pathetic wrecks.

Nothing wrong with that.

No, it's just my taste.

I'm the same way. "Eclectic" doesn't begin to describe my musical tastes.

I'm basically a hard rock, heavy metal person and rock is my favorite music but i can find gems in other musical styles as well.

I don't know. With Harry, when people started to wonder why didn't he have a box on his chair, it seems to me like they had four options in all:
1. Have a proper promotion ceremony for him, or do it in a quieter and more intimate fashion (like the way I proposed).
2. Just do it quietly, i.e. have him have a hollow pip on his collar one day.
3. Ignore the complaints completely.
4. Rub the viewers' nose in the fact that Harry's not getting promoted and there's NOTHING they can do about it.

As seen in "Nightingale", they chose #4.

They do have the bad taste of choosing the worst alternative all the time, haven't they?

It was either very clueless or mean-spirited. And given what they pulled with Harry, mean-spiritedness seems to be their nature.

That's the impression I get too.

I don't know... seems like "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk" covered that. Instead of her hunky flesh and blood first officer, Janeway settles for a very sophisticated version of a vibrator.

Still, if they're capable of delivering one slap across the J/C-ers' face, no reason for them not to administer two.

Fair Haven and Spirit Folks were downright crap as I see it. Two episodes which almost made me fell asleep.

If I had been a fan of VOY's seasons 4-7 and watched them from time to time, i would probably have skipped those episodes in the same way I use to skip TNG's Shades Of Gray and Lessons.

As for Janeway, I liked her in seasons 1-3 but not in the later seasons. I think that they really messed up the character.

The Kurtzman crew had no reason to have any grudge against Garrett Wang. But I do know a lot of people take pleasure in the whole "eternal ensign" business. Maybe this was an effort to avoid upsetting them. And then, with the "heroes wall", they throw the other side a bone as well.

I must admit that I find such actions childish.

Maybe that's why I call them "rogues". They're charming, but you don't want your daughter dating them.

Hmmmmm........why not?
Garak seem to be a nice and caring guy, something which could be seen in his relationship with Tora Ziyal, Gowron is a mighty Klingon politician and Quark is a wealthy businessman.

And Q is omnipotent and can give my daughter everything if she wish so why not?

Maybe, but Kes never seemed the type.

No, she wasn't. The monster in that episode in season six has no resemblance at all to Kes.

Robert Beltran insisted on it and forced them because he's a dick and his character should have been killed off when he started just phoning it in in season 4.

Unfortunately, I must state that I do find your comments about Beltran rude. in what way was he a "dick"? For telling the truth about those in charge of the show?

If he insisted on that relationship, it was a mistake and in that case he should have suggested it long before it happened, maybe in season 4, 5 or six instead of the last possible minutes of the series.

And I don't think that those in charge were forced. They were probably all too happy to fulfil Beltran's possible wishes and use it as a slap in the face of the J/C-ers.

As for Beltran, sometimes I get the impression that some people dislike him because he had the guts to tell the world what he thought about those in charge.

I can also understand Beltran's frustration. Chakotay was a great character with a good premise who was actually quite good in seasons 1,2 and 3 and then he's shoved aside with most of the others when VOY was turned into VSNS (Voyager-The Seven Of Nine Show).

Personally I'm happy that they didn't kill him of, it was bad enough with Kes (destroyed), Kim (humiliated for ever) and Neelix who they dumped on a crappy asteroid in the middle of nowhere.

Whether he was phoning it in, or they just wouldn't give him anything good... yeah, you're probably right. Honestly, they could have dispensed with him and Harry both. Not because the actors were bad or the characters lacked potential, they were just being underutilized. And TOS, TNG, and ENT all ran fine with a seven-character core.

Here I have to disagree. Chakotay and Kim were good characters who deserved better than to be killed off. As it is now, theres always hope that the current trend in TrekLit with all that chaacter destruction will change and that we will se new stories about those characters in some better future. It's bad enough as it is with Kes, Garak and Gowron and even Janeway and the fact that I have to check Memory Beta everytime I consider to buy a Star Trek book to avoid being terribly disappointed.