A few things to discuss about Kes

[Lynx]

You called adaptation an act of cowardice so I'm afraid I was quite confused.

It can actually be.
Especially when I see people around me, just accepting that things are constantly getting worse and don't even try to change that.

No, just the state of technology and his brother's choices.

I do consider Robert Picard to be a grumpy old man.
He had his wineyard and Jean Luc had his ship. Theyy were both happy with their choices. So why complain?

I understand that perfectly. I'm more than a bit old school myself.

It's not only "old school" for me. When I was about 7-8 years old I knew exactly what kind of music I liked and what I didn't like.

It would have been a perfect reason for him to be considered a senior officer, even as an ensign (at first). Just have him be highly expert in Voyager's bio-neural circuitry. And very tech-adept in general. Because of that, Janeway advances him to the grown up table, the way she does the academy dropout.

That's right and he did actually become a senior officer immediately. Hew as always there for the meetings with the senior staff while other crew members like Liutenants Carey and Rollins weren't.

But then something went wrong. He still was one of the senior staff but he never developed in that role, at least not in the TV episodes. He was more important in some of the books.

After it's clear to all that he's been doing work far above his rank, Janeway promotes him.

Which is exactly what should have happened.

The rule did not exist before being mentioned in that episode. James Kirk and Will Riker banged females of every description.

That's right. But as soon poor Harry tried, someone invented a new rule.
As I've written before, they actually tried to make him a loser.

It wasn't EXCELLENT (guitar riff), in other words?

No, it wasn't. The picture below shows that.

Someone obviously had it in for him, given the events around "Favorite Son". You don't deliberately allow a character to stagnate so completely otherwise.

As for Favorite Son, that episode isn't that bad. he actually was the main character in that episode and some action as well. Plus the episode was a bit spooky too.

But already before that, he was shoved in the background a lot.

Problem is, what to do after the break-up. When you have a love triangle, you either eliminate the third or match him up with someone else.

Or you just let the third one float in the background as a part of the team or whatsoever. At least until something new shows up.

Problem is, I don't think any opposition group on Bajor would oppose a project that saved thousands of people from suffering through an icy winter. Mullibok just did because it was personal for him. He had a home, and didn't want a new one.

No, not when it comes to that project.
But there would always be something which he could join and use to pay back, like Jaro Essa's scemes with The Circle and Shakaar's uprising against Kai Winn in the episode Shakaar.

That's why I head canon that when a new home (on Bajor) was forced on him, a home managed by the people who evicted him, he utterly refused to embrace his new life in any way. Not because it's right... but because it's what an angry, bitter old curmudgeon would do.

Not only what an angry, bitter old curmudgeon would do.
To be honest, I was in my teens when I was involved in a similar situation when my childhood paradise was wiped off the Earth and I reacted in the same way as Mullibik did.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

That's right and he did actually become a senior officer immediately. Hew as always there for the meetings with the senior staff while other crew members like Liutenants Carey and Rollins weren't.

It was just one of those dumb things, like B'Elanna getting promoted for assaulting a superior. It would have been better for Durst to be the ranking operations officer, and B'Elanna having to serve under Carey for awhile. But Voyager set its status quo quickly, then never let it change.

But then something went wrong. He still was one of the senior staff but he never developed in that role, at least not in the TV episodes. He was more important in some of the books.

That's because the book writers saw him as an eminently usable and developable character. The episode writers should have done the same.

As I've written before, they actually tried to make him a loser.

Pretty much. Hard to explain a lot of the stuff that happened to him (especially him spending 31 years as an ensign) otherwise.

No, it wasn't. The picture below shows that.

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As for Favorite Son, that episode isn't that bad. he actually was the main character in that episode and some action as well. Plus the episode was a bit spooky too.

My vendetta against that episode comes not from its quality, but because it's the episode where the writers tried to salvage Harry's character... and were forced to not do so. Harry's long stagnation was set as policy.

Or you just let the third one float in the background as a part of the team or whatsoever. At least until something new shows up.

If you're continuing the story, that makes sense. If you're ending it, you need to resolve some things.

But there would always be something which he could join and use to pay back, like Jaro Essa's scemes with The Circle and Shakaar's uprising against Kai Winn in the episode Shakaar.

Having him implode the government that destroyed his home would actually be pretty satisfying. Long as they didn't try to tack on some smarmy "I'm happy on Bajor now" ending. As I often say, I see no path to happiness for him... only the grim satisfaction of retribution.

To be honest, I was in my teens when I was involved in a similar situation when my childhood paradise was wiped off the Earth and I reacted in the same way as Mullibik did.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Pretty much. Hard to explain a lot of the stuff that happened to him (especially him spending 31 years as an ensign) otherwise.

Also, when it comes to his love life... everyone were acting like his attraction to Seven was something strange. Why? It seems pretty normal to me, unlike other ones...

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

Harry has no fewer than 11 failed romances over the course of the show.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Harry has no fewer than 11 failed romances over the course of the show.

I think Seven was the most normal one and it could avtually work... but probably writters dec8ded it would be too good for Harry.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think Seven was the most normal one and it could avtually work... but probably writters dec8ded it would be too good for Harry.

If Harry had somehow tricked Seven into losing her publicly cited virginity in season 4, she would have died.

Her cortical implant punishes happiness.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

If Harry had somehow tricked Seven into losing her publicly cited virginity in season 4, she would have died.

Her cortical implant punishes happiness.

If Harry had been the sort of man who preys on the innocent and inexperienced, he and Seven would likely have made the beast with two backs in "Revulsion".

Of course, regardless of what Seven's Borg doo-hickey would have done to her, Janeway would likely have chewed out Harry, demoted him, reprimanded him, tossed him in the brig, maybe even ordered Tuvok to replicate a cat o' nine tails and flog him in front of the ship's company. Because no way Harry's going to be happy on her watch!

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Maybe if Kes came back, real Kes came back, she could talk some sense into Janeway. She has a way of convincing people.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

The real Janeway wasn't like that. Remember that I'm creating hyperbole based on the actions of incompetent showrunners.

The Janeway we knew and loved might have quietly counseled Harry to be careful, that Seven's knowledge of human social customs was vastly limited. But she would not have made his misery her life's work.

However, I could see her and Kes having a hearthlfelt discussion, regarding her concerns for Seven. Kes reminds her that Harry is a good and honorable man, not given to randomly exploiting people. And maybe shares her perspective on her relationship with Neelix.

It's really too bad we lost Kes as a character. DS9 had 20+ significant characters. VOY could have handled 10.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

I think even 11 characters could be there... Some just might be recurring.
Some main characters tended to barely appear in most episodes later on, thry coukd be recurring

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

Who should be the 11th?

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Harry had been the sort of man who preys on the innocent and inexperienced, he and Seven would likely have made the beast with two backs in "Revulsion".

Of course, regardless of what Seven's Borg doo-hickey would have done to her, Janeway would likely have chewed out Harry, demoted him, reprimanded him, tossed him in the brig, maybe even ordered Tuvok to replicate a cat o' nine tails and flog him in front of the ship's company. Because no way Harry's going to be happy on her watch!

Harry is young and innocent!

I was going to suggest that it is likely that this naive gerbil was also a virgin in Caretaker, then I remembered that Libby banged the hell out of him in the first act of non Sequitur, or "our Harry" arrived into a body of a version of himself suffering from the natural glow of a very recent physical thrashing, so it's likely that she was already doing that to him on the regular before Caretaker too... Unless that, their first time, was an extra special reward for inventing the super shuttle?

It was Tom who was going to rut with Seven in Day of Honor to hurt B'Elanna.

So bad men, doing bad things is always on the table.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It can actually be.
Especially when I see people around me, just accepting that things are constantly getting worse and don't even try to change that.


I do consider Robert Picard to be a grumpy old man.
He had his wineyard and Jean Luc had his ship. Theyy were both happy with their choices. So why complain?


It's not only "old school" for me. When I was about 7-8 years old I knew exactly what kind of music I liked and what I didn't like.

That's right and he did actually become a senior officer immediately. Hew as always there for the meetings with the senior staff while other crew members like Liutenants Carey and Rollins weren't.

But then something went wrong. He still was one of the senior staff but he never developed in that role, at least not in the TV episodes. He was more important in some of the books.

Which is exactly what should have happened.

That's right. But as soon poor Harry tried, someone invented a new rule.
As I've written before, they actually tried to make him a loser.

No, it wasn't. The picture below shows that.


As for Favorite Son, that episode isn't that bad. he actually was the main character in that episode and some action as well. Plus the episode was a bit spooky too.

But already before that, he was shoved in the background a lot.

Or you just let the third one float in the background as a part of the team or whatsoever. At least until something new shows up.

No, not when it comes to that project.
But there would always be something which he could join and use to pay back, like Jaro Essa's scemes with The Circle and Shakaar's uprising against Kai Winn in the episode Shakaar.

Not only what an angry, bitter old curmudgeon would do.
To be honest, I was in my teens when I was involved in a similar situation when my childhood paradise was wiped off the Earth and I reacted in the same way as Mullibik did.

A department head doesn't have to know anything about about the particulars of that department. It helps if the Security Chief knows space kung fu but its exclusionary if half the crew can never be promoted, or demoted to run different departments on the ship as fate picks off and buries all their friends in space.

It's about logistics and HR.

Making sure that someone who can do the job is always rostered on to do the job, is good old fashioned paperwork, not a decade of intense education in weird magic space science.

 

[Lynx]

It was just one of those dumb things, like B'Elanna getting promoted for assaulting a superior. It would have been better for Durst to be the ranking operations officer, and B'Elanna having to serve under Carey for awhile. But Voyager set its status quo quickly, then never let it change.

That thing with B'Elanna actually disturbs me.

If that had happened in "real life", she would never ever have been close to any kind of promotion. I mean, she was actually close to kill him and then it's just waved away as if it was some minor insult.

Personally I would never have come up with such a lousy scenario if it hadn't been planned from the start that b'Elanna should have been killed off in one of the next two episodes. i would have limited it to some shouting argument and then found a way for B'Elanna to be promoted later on.

I actually like B'Elanna as a character and if she was supposed to be a main character, I would never have created that situation in which she was nearly killing Carey.

That's because the book writers saw him as an eminently usable and developable character. The episode writers should have done the same.

Yes, they should.

Pretty much. Hard to explain a lot of the stuff that happened to him (especially him spending 31 years as an ensign) otherwise.

30 years as an ensign is actually devastating to the character. Sort of "he's actually quite worthless but we can't fire him so let's keep him as an ensign with the one and only purpose to look after the toilet so no one can write something stupid about the captain on the toilet walls".

It reminds me of Picard in Tapestry, in that alternative future which Q created when Picard was an over-aged ensign for his whole carreer and how Riker and Troy dismissed him when he dared to speak up about a promotion.

No doubt why he rather would let Q kill him of instead of having him to live that sort of life.

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Excellent!
Honestly, I would have loved to play that role in the movie, playing the guy who is so happy by being condemned to the "iron maiden".

My vendetta against that episode comes not from its quality, but because it's the episode where the writers tried to salvage Harry's character... and were forced to not do so. Harry's long stagnation was set as policy.

I can understand that.
But I still find it weird that they never even tried to make something better out of the character.

If you're continuing the story, that makes sense. If you're ending it, you need to resolve some things.

I'm not sure about that.
If the story was supposed to end, I would probably leave it as it was, then possible fans of the storie could start writing fanfic about how they wanted the character to find a new love osr something like that.

Having him implode the government that destroyed his home would actually be pretty satisfying. Long as they didn't try to tack on some smarmy "I'm happy on Bajor now" ending. As I often say, I see no path to happiness for him... only the grim satisfaction of retribution.

I also find it hard to believe that he would have become "happy on Bajor".
Getting him involved in some sceme to overthrow those who have caused his pain would have been more satisfying.
Or to quote Aerosmith: "Don't get mad, get even"

I'm sorry that happened to you.

Thanks for your concern!
To be honest, it's not some trauma which I'm constantly thinking of. I just brought it up because it had some similarity to Mullibok's fate.
So far I'm not involved in any sceme to "get even". I just avoid that place, that's all.
But I do find a certain glee when it comes to criticize those who were responsible for what happened and their successors.

Also, when it comes to his love life... everyone were acting like his attraction to Seven was something strange. Why? It seems pretty normal to me, unlike other ones...

Harry has no fewer than 11 failed romances over the course of the show.

11!
Oh dear!

It also shows the inconsistent writing of the show. First they decide that Harry will be faithful to Libby and not interested in getting involved with the Delaney sisters or anyone else.

Then they create 11 failed relationships for him! Is that one with Marayna one of them?

I think Seven was the most normal one and it could avtually work... but probably writters dec8ded it would be too good for Harry.

Instead they created the Chakotay/Seven relatinship, the most unrealistic and most hated relationship of them all.

Unfortunately not the first time they showed the "finger" to a certain fan group.

If Harry had been the sort of man who preys on the innocent and inexperienced, he and Seven would likely have made the beast with two backs in "Revulsion".

Of course, regardless of what Seven's Borg doo-hickey would have done to her, Janeway would likely have chewed out Harry, demoted him, reprimanded him, tossed him in the brig, maybe even ordered Tuvok to replicate a cat o' nine tails and flog him in front of the ship's company. Because no way Harry's going to be happy on her watch!

And all that because Harry didn't share the enthusiasm for Iron Maiden that Janeway and many other of his crewmates had.

It didn't even help that he actually tried!

Maybe if Kes came back, real Kes came back, she could talk some sense into Janeway. She has a way of convincing people.

If anyone had managed to convince anyone, it was Kes.
She actually convinced Tuvok to contact the Vidiians for a cure for that disease which Chakotay and Janeway was suffering fromm in Resolutions.

When poor Harry tried the same thing, he was almost court-martialed.

The real Janeway wasn't like that. Remember that I'm creating hyperbole based on the actions of incompetent showrunners.

The Janeway we knew and loved might have quietly counseled Harry to be careful, that Seven's knowledge of human social customs was vastly limited. But she would not have made his misery her life's work.

However, I could see her and Kes having a hearthlfelt discussion, regarding her concerns for Seven. Kes reminds her that Harry is a good and honorable man, not given to randomly exploiting people. And maybe shares her perspective on her relationship with Neelix.

It's really too bad we lost Kes as a character. DS9 had 20+ significant characters. VOY could have handled 10.

The real Janeway wasn't like that in seasons 1-3.

But the "Mirror Universe Janeway" which all of a sudden showed up on the ship in seasons 4-7 could have done that.

I wonder how that happened. Was Q behind it?
Or was it Henry Starling who managed to mess up time in some way as a revenge for they trying to kill him?

I think even 11 characters could be there... Some just might be recurring.
Some main characters tended to barely appear in most episodes later on, thry coukd be recurring

Well, DS9 had 10 main characters and a lot of recurring characters.

In fact, VOY was a show which really should have needed a lot of recurring character due to the story itself about a crew lost in space.

They were many good characters who could have been recurring characters: Carey, Dalby, Henley, Chell, Gerron, Rollins, Wixiban, Tal Celes, maybe Seska and Culluh too.

 

[XCV330]

I do consider Robert Picard to be a grumpy old man.
He had his wineyard and Jean Luc had his ship. Theyy were both happy with their choices. So why complain?

I have to assume Robert Picard was either an idiot or criminally negligent in the name of tradition. How can you manage to have a building in the future that doesn't have fire-prevention or some sort of alarm and rescue system for the occupants?

 

[Guy Gardener]

I have to assume Robert Picard was either an idiot or criminally negligent in the name of tradition. How can you manage to have a building in the future that doesn't have fire-prevention or some sort of alarm and rescue system for the occupants?

B'Elanna died in Faces, and was replaced by a transporter clone, so you got your wish.

Harry died in Deadlock twice, so Libby was off the hook.

Shinzon kidnapped Robert and Rene to harvest their spinal fluid.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

That thing with B'Elanna actually disturbs me.

It should. Promoting a character for ASSAULTING A SUPERIOR?! Just because you got all chummy with her in a shuttlecraft?!

Personally I would never have come up with such a lousy scenario if it hadn't been planned from the start that b'Elanna should have been killed off in one of the next two episodes. i would have limited it to some shouting argument and then found a way for B'Elanna to be promoted later on.

At the very least, B'Elanna should have gotten confined to quarters for a couple days. And a heart to heart with Chakotay that if it happened again, he would brig her himself.

30 years as an ensign is actually devastating to the character.

Really. The memes make a joke of him.

It reminds me of Picard in Tapestry, in that alternative future which Q created when Picard was an over-aged ensign for his whole carreer and how Riker and Troy dismissed him when he dared to speak up about a promotion.

I think Q was messing with Picard a little. Why would a 50+ year old LTJG be on the Enterprise? That kind of officer would have been Cerritos fodder.

I can understand that.
But I still find it weird that they never even tried to make something better out of the character.

I get the sense it was a vendetta. Thanks to that article they couldn't sack him, so they were doing what they saw as the next best thing.

If the story was supposed to end, I would probably leave it as it was, then possible fans of the storie could start writing fanfic about how they wanted the character to find a new love osr something like that.

Possibly... as long as I didn't have to do it.

I also find it hard to believe that he would have become "happy on Bajor".
Getting him involved in some sceme to overthrow those who have caused his pain would have been more satisfying.

Infinitely. Especially if he managed to do some real damage, and show that crushing "the little guy" under your boot has consequences. Regardless of how good your intentions were.

Or to quote Aerosmith: "Don't get mad, get even"

The best way to get even is not to harm those who wronged you... it is to destroy the cause they fought for when they did.

But I do find a certain glee when it comes to criticize those who were responsible for what happened and their successors.

I blame you not at all.

Then they create 11 failed relationships for him! Is that one with Marayna one of them?

Here they are, right on Page 1.

My Thoughts on Voyager's Prospective Romances

VOYAGER'S ROMANCES - An Analysis Note: For the purposes of this analysis, as I am a straight man, I have decided to focus (for starters) on opposite-sex pairings among Voyager's ten primary crew members. If you have any thoughts, either on these pairings or other potential ones, be they...

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Unfortunately not the first time they showed the "finger" to a certain fan group.

Seems like a bad idea to bite the hand that feeds you.

When poor Harry tried the same thing, he was almost court-martialed.

Harry went about it the wrong way. Had he started with the way he handled it the second time, I doubt he would have prevailed (he didn't have Kes's charisma), but it wouldn't have been near as ugly.

They were many good characters who could have been recurring characters: Carey, Dalby, Henley, Chell, Gerron, Rollins, Wixiban, Tal Celes, maybe Seska and Culluh too.

And Voyager, since it had the same crew year after year, would have been the perfect medium for well-developed recurring characters.

I especially enjoyed my AU use of Seska, where she was outed, but couldn't beam to a convenient Kazon ship. Ultimately, she had to find a place as a member of Voyager's crew.