Many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own point of view.
I do not see destruction when I can watch Star Trek whenever I want and ignore what I don't like.
A few things to discuss about Kes
- Thread starter BohandiAnsoid
- Start date
I do not see destruction when I can watch Star Trek whenever I want and ignore what I don't like.
If the Star Trek books were canon, I wouldn't have cause for complaint about Harry anymore. He's received the promotion he deserved in several of them, and in none has he been kept at ensign after Voyager's return.
But it makes happy endings.
My trouble with Insurrection is that I didn't agree with Picard's position. I'm like Spock; I tend to believe that the needs of the many DO outweigh the needs of the few.
But if they had to make it, better to end TNG there and move on to the DS9 and VOY crews for ST X.
Especially since they really didn't. ENT had transporters, phasers, photon torpedoes... it was just more of the same.
Use the force, Luke.
Maybe... but I also dislike it when good characters get a raw deal. And quite a few of them did. I didn't read the book Lynx hates so much, but I agree with him about Gowron and Kes. And I think the Ferengi as a whole got screwed in the end, too.
I just have a different mindset. Much of the stories I enjoyed as a child were Downers, even with Star Trek. I no longer go into the happily ever after premise of endings depending on the story told.
I get the passion to a degree; I don't care for Kirk or Data's death (and I don't even like Data). But I can appreciate the stories. The older I get the less I want characters to last for ever.
If you look at it that way, I can understand some of your points, even if I don't agree on them.
My problem is that i have got too much to ignore then in recent years.
What I have to look forward to when it comes to Star Trek is a new "Relaunch" of DS9 which I will start on Christmas Eve!
In that case, that would be something to be a bit happy for.
I actually appreaced the attempts to restore Kes in the Dark Matter books written by Christie Golden and the String Theory book Evolution written by Heather Jarman, even if what was there were far away from what I really wish for the character.
Maybe there will be someone who dare to give Kim a promotion somewhere in some movie or series. Not so complicated as to come up with a decent restore of Kes which probably seems to be too hard and controversial to do.
Does it?
Becoming a boring old fart isn't exactly a happy ending, rather quite boring.
And who needs "endings" when it's possible to have more interesting stories about those characters?
My sincere apology here. It wasn't my intention to trash Insurrection when I was thinking about Nemesis which was really horrible!
I just mixed them up, most likely because I was tired when I replied to that previous post. There were a lot to reply to and at the end I just wanted to finish it so I probably lost concentration for a while.
Insurrection wasn't particularily good but it was ten times better than Nemesis.
As for the quote from Spock, I rather agree with Neelix in the VOY episode Learning Curve when he stated that "sometimes you have to bend the rules".
No it had been better to never come up with Nemesis. That one was horrible!
And I'm happy that we never had to see the DS9 and VOY characters in that mess.
It was just a step in the wrong direction, just like if the music industry should abandon the recording techniques we have today and go back to what they did in the 30's with an otrrchestra, a singer and a microphone in the middle of the room plus the kind of records which broke if you dropped them.
Plus how established Star Trek history was messed up which is always the danger with prequels.
In this I agree. Kes and Gowron were too great as characters to be treated like they were and the whole change of ferengi society was stupid.
As for the book, I found it so unnecessary and cruel to come up with a story where Garak is "revealed" as a war criminal (which he never was according to DS9 "canon") and then use it as a reason to humiliate, destroy and finally kill off the character, a character who could have been a prominent person in more books!
Not to mention that I did take it a bit personal since I actually had praised McCormack's earlier books about Cardassia in which Garak played a major part and written that her books had made me find new hope in TrekLit in a post written only a few days before I found out about the content in that book. It felt like I was stabbed in the back by someone I actually praised.
The contrary with me. The older I get, the more I want the characters to be around for further episodes.
I've always regarded aging as a curse!
I've had that since TNG.
I think aging is a curse but also that the effort to hold on to things past their time is a recipe for resentment.
Without Jennifer Lien available, probably not.
As for Harry... they tried. They tried to add him to Prodigy, it got canceled. They tried to add him to Picard, his appearance was canceled. They tried to off-camera promote him by putting him on the wall of heroes... but that's been deleted. My hopes aren't high at this juncture.
Sure it is. Your character has gone through hell, and now they're ready to live the good life. There's a reason why "may you live in interesting times" is considered a curse.
If you're not planning on continuing a character's story, it makes sense to leave them in a good place. Better than that travesty of an ending for Voyager, where they spent half the episode telling us what DIDN'T happen.
Nemesis is the movie that should have been deleted in favor of the DS9/VOY crossover.
To paraphrase McCoy, "I know scriptwriters, they love to change things."
And unnecessary. Why do Ferengi have to be anything other than the greedy, misogynistic, untrustworthy little trolls they are?
Didn't read it, don't even know the title, so no judgment. Especially since I have killed characters when I felt their death would contribute more to the story than their continuing existence.
And still you comment on a VOY forum?
To "hold on to the past" might be a life-saver in a run-down and dystopian world.
Better to resent than bow for the evil.
"Never surrender
When you're up against the wall
Never surrender
Stand up-fight them all!"
"Never Surrender"
Saxon
No, there will most likely be no Kes in any future movie or series.
And I'm content with that. There would be very hard to replace Lien and if i know those in charge of Star Trek well, they would probably only detroy the character even more.
Most likely because of the times we're living in now and also because they don't dare to question the previous destruction of the character.
It should be possible to restore the character in books, but they don't seem to want to do it.
As for Harry, it still surprises me and actually angers me too that every attempt to restore the character and do away with the "loser" stamp which he has is met with so much resistance. I can't understand why?
Even if they have a conflict with actor Garret Wang, why spit on the character?
But it still doesn't make good episodes or books.
In that case it's better just to leave them, without killing them off or destroy them.
Then there still would be room for imagination, fan-fiction and good stories.
Yes!
I could actually imagine a TNG/DS9/VOY crossover.
I was actually hoping for something like that after TNG and DS9 were cancelled and Voyager was on its last seasons. That could have been interesting.
Instead they just abandoned the exciting 24th century and came up with a lame series which messed up established Star Trek history.
And after that.........oh dear!
That should be changed to "they love to mess up things".
I agree on that too.
But fortunately, DS9 gave us Quark!
A great character who was much more than just a greedy troll. OK, he could be that from time to time but he also showed that he had a big heart and a sense of justice too.
The book is called Second Self. I don't recommend it.
I actually discovered the content of the book while searching for more books by McCormack about Cardassia and Garak. I was actually very happy with the books The Never Ending Sacrifice and The Crimson Shadow.
When I found out about the content and wrote about it, I was criticized for not have read the book and that I only had Memory Beta as reference. By sheer "luck" (?) I found an used example in some bargain book store for a very decent price so I bought it and read it.
It was worse than expected.
Since it's against my principle to throw books in a trashcan, i simply went back to the shop and put it back where I found it, I didnt even bother to want teh money back.
garak could definitely have contributed a lot to many stories. Unfortunately he wasn't allowed to it.
Sure. Star Trek is more than one or two disappointments.
I doubt it. I've tried and it never helps.
Indeed, yes. There are those everywhere who seek to punish people for not adopting their twisted or skewed philosophy. It's the only weapon they have: since they cannot defend their beliefs with logic, they defend them with abuse of power.
Like "that 6th season episode" on steroids. At least she was still the woman she was in "The Gift".
Just Google "harry kim meme" or look at the Voyager 5-word story. People take pleasure in denigrating the character. It's become so self sustaining, any effort to salvage him seems to get shut down.
I don't get the "poor dumb eternal ensign Harry Kim" crowd... and don't want to.
I kill off characters for several reasons...
1. They're expendable (most common).
2. It seems like the natural completion for their journey.
3. I see no happy ending for them (I would have bumped off Mullibok, for example).
4. Their death can be milked for emotional impact.
5. They're in the way (a third in a love triangle, for instance).
That didn't mean they had to wreck his culture, any more than Klingons had to become peaceful, Romulans had to be trustworthy, or Bajorans had to become atheists.
At least Garak got to contribute during DS9's run. Characters like Harry and Travis Mayweather did not.
Yes.
But you can't find me in the ENT, DSC and PIC forums.
I have had some not so pleasant debates in the general Star Trek Forum and Future Star Trek Forum but it's been a while now.
It's still better than trying to adapt to what I might call "unpleasant times".
I rather listen to Rolling Stones or Iron Maiden than Taylor Swift.
But we all have dfifferent ways to cope with problems.
Yes.
And come up with personal attacks instead of debating the subject.
True.
But even The Gift was an abnormity which ruined the character.
If it was absolutely necessary to dump her (which I highly doubt), it would have been better if she had left with Zahir in Darkling.
Or Zajhir could have returned in season 4 and they could have left together. That had been much better than that energy-being mumbo jumbo.
Yes, I've seen that and it immediately activated the "Wesley Crusher syndrome" in me.
Back in the days when I first watched TNG, I did find Wesley a bit annoying from time to time.
I didn't hate the character, it was more like a certain irritation over the "Wesley saves the day" or "Wesley screws up another experiment which cause damage on the ship" stuff.
But when i got Internet and read all the hatred aimed at the character on different forums, then I started to like him and defend him.
I was actually sad to see him go in season 4 when the character had becoming more interesting than in the previous seasons and actually angry over how he was ruined in Journey's End.
The same with Harry Kim. OK, I may have written some critical comments abou the character, especially about that "whipping boy" syndrome where Harry is constantly something of a loser, being beaten up or badly injured and close to death, a syndrome which actually happens even in the VOY books where Harry otherwise is better handled than in the episodes.
But in later years i've found the constant ridiculing of Harry Kim downright annoying.
Unfortunately, it seem to be one of the worst things with humans, to kick someone who's down.
Even Kes has been victim of that since she had the bad luck to be dumped from VOY.
I also try to stay away from them because of what i've written above.
I guess I have a different way of writing. So far i haven't even killed off one of my main characters.
If and when I kill off a character, I have it planned from the beginning. If Ensign Jenkins is killed off in episode 3, then it is something I actually planned when I was writing episode 1.
It was an example, it hasn't happened yet but that's the way i would do.
i've actually done things the other way around. Once I wriote a story where the real villain was based on a real scumbag i met in real life, although worse in the story than in reality.
I was planning to kill him of but I decided to spare him. "He can be a great villain again in some story" I thought.
As for Mullibok, I would rather have made him a political activist, working against the government whic ruined his little paradise and finding pleasure in being among them who did ovetrhorw the government in a possible story.
In this I totally agree.
Yes, he did. Therefore it annoyed me when he was killed off in a book for reasons which had nothing to do with his character in the series. Not to mention that he was made ridiculous as well.
As for Harry Kim and Travis mayweather, there might still be hope
I love debates. I learn from them.
Adaptation is the fundamental facet of humanity.
A "loser" character isn't always a bad thing. Those three from "Good Shepherd" could have been interesting recurring characters, had it not been for the Big Red Reset Button. But Harry wasn't a loser character. Both Janeway and Chakotay considered him an outstanding officer.
Agreed. Especially since the powers that be are sucking off the people who are doing it, busy deleting Harry's PIC appearance for example.
Or bans. I once got threatened with a ban from a Potterhead website because I dared to say that Ron and Hermione were a lousy match. They didn't defend the pairing, they just said support it or leave. I left.
Ironically, later on, JK Rowling herself admitted that those two were a questionable pairing.
She doesn't do much for me, either.
It would have been a tough go. The destruction of the moon wasn't about creating an interstellar bypass. It was about heating homes, saving lives. From a rational perspective, evicting three people to save thousands is an easy choice. Mullibok's miserable life afterward was necessary collateral damage.
I understand that... but I still get a nasty satisfaction at the thought of him denying his people his help afterward. Which I suppose says something about me...
Then we're definitely different. But nothing wrong with that! Agreeing to disagree seems like a lost art sometimes.
Sometimes, for me, a story just evolves. And when that happens, a character I intended to wipe out might get spared. Or vice versa.
We need more like you.
The same here actually.
I have to disagree here. Adaption is an act of cowardice, as I see it.
Maybe adaption is what makes humanity fail so often.
Resistance is much better, standing up for what one believe in.
No, he wasn't actually a loser character. He was supposed to be an important member of the crew, something of a computer and computer systems expert which he actually was in some of the Voyager books. But those in charge of the series turned into a "whipping boy", the one who was beaten up, the one who failed to convince Tuvok about how important it was to contact the Vidiians to get a cure for janeway's and Chakotay's disease in Resolutions and so on.
Which is terrible, I think. Sort of feeding the bullies.
That was a narrow-minded act of those Potterheads.
I'm not so much into Harry Potter so I can't comment on it. But sometimes pairings fail, mostly because they are made up just because someone things that it just has to be a pairing in the series.
I just can't stand that lightweight pop music she performs.
It was a long time since I watched Good Shepherd but I remember liking those characters, especially Tal Celes. I don't know if she showed up in season 7 (which I never watched) but she should have been a recurring character. I actuallly brought her into one of my stories as a Voyager crewmember.
Actress Zoe McLellan who played Tal Celes was also in the series JAG and Later on in NCIS New Orleans for two seasons. She was fired from the series in almost the same rotten way as Jennifer Lien was fired from VOY in season 4, a rude act which made me start losing interest for NCIS New Orleans. I hardly watched it after that.
Well, you're obviously a nicer person than I am.
I must admit that I do have some sympathy for Mullibok in this case.
If I was in a similar situation here something I love would be destroyed for "the greater good" (well, I've been in a similar situation which is too much off-topic to discuss here), I might have acted in the same way as he did, especially if those who asked for my help was toe same ones who caused my misery.
If someone told me to help out for the sake of starving children and so, I might accept the suggestion and try to contribute.
But if the same people who destroyed my paradise would come and ask me for help, I would tell them where to go.
That's right!
In fact, some of my best friends are people with different opinions than mine but we still get along because of similar interests and such.
I guess my way of storytelling is a bit different but I can understand your points.
There are times to resist, and there are times to adapt. Part of being a strong and moral person is knowing the difference.
I think in the series he was known to be technically skilled as well. They just never really shone a spotlight on him making use of those gifts. Just a brief mention here and there, like him helping build the astrometrics lab, or help Tom with Alice.
That was out of character anyway. They had two very good "question authority" types in Tom and B'Elanna. Harry Kim followed orders, except when under direct alien influence. That's why I think that if he had fought the reprimand he got in "The Disease", it would have been stricken. Sadly, his Janeway worship ensured that he didn't. That's why, on PRO, he was still a lieutenant five years after Voyager. He should have been at least a LCDR by then.
I knew there was a reason I liked you!
There are similar people closer to home. They know who they are.
That's why I wiped that one character. I didn't want to end it like "The Secret of NIMH", where a character's "soul mate" literally falls out of the sky and lands on him. I know people are more likely to meet their True Love after high school than before... but it still felt overly convenient.
That's Hollywood... and it's deplorable.
If you'd do the right thing even when you REALLY don't want to, you're probably no worse than I.
That's why I had Mullibok blow them off. He saw all of Bajor's powers that be as his enemy. And now he had to live among them, be governed by them. Helping them, even if it helped rank and file Bajorans, was a bridge too far. When someone crosses you, the most satisfying revenge is to destroy the cause they fight for.
As do I. And I saw no possibility of a happy ending for him, just years of bitterness and meaningless existence. That's why I would have bumped him off.
So humanity should never adapt and become more than what it was before? Evolve even, to borrow from some random science fiction show? We should resist change at all costs?
Robert Picard: if you ask me life has become too convenient.
I must admit that I do find it hard to adapt to things, trends and times i loathe.
If i do, it's more because of tactical reasons, there are things I simply can't accept.
The meaning was obviously that he should be technically skilled and a whizz kid with computers. The sad thing is that those in charge of the series totally ignored that.
Plus the fact that she didn't like his musical taste!
As for The Disease, it was a long time since I watched it too. But why wasn't Harry allowed to have a relationship with an alien when Tom did mess up such things a few times?
But Janeway had become verry erratic at that time (dfue to stupid writing) and maybe making Kim look bad was another kick in the butt from the producers and writers.
I am very likable!
I'm not familiar with your case so I won't comment on it.
I guess I had settled with a more convenient break up.
And disgusting!
Sometimes I do that, I don't know why.
As I've written before, I do have some sympathy for him.
I would rather have turned him into someone who took the chance to "show the finger" at them by joining some opposition group on Bajor.
It depends on what you mean with adaption.
If development leads to a better society, then I can accept it. I was one of those who really welcomed the "computer revolution" for example.
But if things are the opposite, when certain changes ruins society, then i'm dead against it.
For example, I simply can't accept music which I don't like and trends in films and series I do find unacceptable. Sort of "gut feeling" I have.
And I've never stated that "we should resist change at any cost. Changes are necessary but it depends on what the changes are.
Robert Picard was Jean Luc's brother. Was he unhappy with his life at his vineyard?
You called adaptation an act of cowardice so I'm afraid I was quite confused.
No, just the state of technology and his brother's choices.
I understand that perfectly. I'm more than a bit old school myself.
It would have been a perfect reason for him to be considered a senior officer, even as an ensign (at first). Just have him be highly expert in Voyager's bio-neural circuitry. And very tech-adept in general. Because of that, Janeway advances him to the grown up table, the way she does the academy dropout.
After it's clear to all that he's been doing work far above his rank, Janeway promotes him.
The rule did not exist before being mentioned in that episode. James Kirk and Will Riker banged females of every description.
It wasn't EXCELLENT (guitar riff), in other words?Plus the fact that she didn't like his musical taste!
Someone obviously had it in for him, given the events around "Favorite Son". You don't deliberately allow a character to stagnate so completely otherwise.
Problem is, what to do after the break-up. When you have a love triangle, you either eliminate the third or match him up with someone else.
Problem is, I don't think any opposition group on Bajor would oppose a project that saved thousands of people from suffering through an icy winter. Mullibok just did because it was personal for him. He had a home, and didn't want a new one.
That's why I head canon that when a new home (on Bajor) was forced on him, a home managed by the people who evicted him, he utterly refused to embrace his new life in any way. Not because it's right... but because it's what an angry, bitter old curmudgeon would do.
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