We have reached consensus.
I can agree on that.
It's just not a horror series.
But, what do I know? I think TNG ended with All Good Things, and one of the only tolerable Q appearances.
No, but it's downright boring and gloomy, far from the optimistic, uplifting scenario in TNG which also had a lot of humor here and there, something PIC totally lacks.
I don't think Picard was a horror series, just a horrible series.
Each season seemed completely out of context with the season before. It was gruesomely violent for no reason, turned the Federation into a nearly complete failure and finally ended up as it was always going to: a geriatric reunion.
In this I totally agree.
It felt very much like Deep Space Nine follow up with limited understanding of that shows success.
But, this isn't that thread for that. I just found the "From Hell" comment odd.
it isn't even close to DS9 in anything. DS9 had great stories and a good mixture of serious, maybe "dark" episodes but also had some lighter episodes which were uplifting and funny. PIC was just gloomy and boring and a sad goodbye to the good TNG.
I thought the results were mixed. Beverly felt like "All Good Things" all over again. Geordi and the Rikers were OK. And it was a clever way to bring back Data.
Bringing back data was the only good thing with the series.
One of the unnecessary character destructions which they actually botherd to do something about and that actually gives the series a point from me.
If they could do the same with kes, Gowron and Garak too in some books.
But still pissed that they caved to the EE crowd and canceled Harry's return as a captain.
I agree. that was rude and stupid.
That's fine. Plenty of Trek for us to enjoy.
Enjoy? Not anything based on DSC and PIC will be enjoyable.
But if you refer to re-watching TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first 3 seasons of VOY, then I agree.
I actually liked that they explored Scotty and Uhura more... they were underused in TOS.
I must admit that I have problems with those new actors, it's not the same as the originals.
Hard disagree. I think that Phoebe Janeway using her sister's stored ova to give her a legacy (who she presumably carried, not Kathryn) was a beautiful way to honor her lost sister.
No, I think the author just messed up the character. She should have married Chakotay and they could have a kid instead.
Well, it's non-canon. Basically, paid fanfiction.
Fortunately. But who dares to write something which makes something better of those characters.
Honestly, your loss. PRO was a great series, deserving of a third season.
And while I didn't like Wes's fate in "Journey's End", it did grow on me after the PIC vignette and PRO. I think it worked.
I just can't stand that "becoming a Traveler" drivel. It definitely ruined Wesley and no one dares to do away with it.
And Memory Alpha includes it as canon... for now. But if they deleted the wall, this might change as well.
let's hope that they don't
Yes. No disagreement. It's my head canon after all. Maybe in someone else's, he settled in on Bajor, made friends, and lived a happy and productive life. Or maybe in a third person's, he grabbed Kira's phaser out of its holster and blasted himself to ions three seconds after they materialized on DS9. But I called it like I saw it.
Or maybe he joined Shakaar's uprising against Kai Winn or contributed to overthrow Jaro Essa. At least Jaro Essa was a member of that provisional government which contributed to theestruction of Jeraddo.
Lynx is like me. We both can get... a little emotionally involved in things that matter to us. Including our fandoms.
Yes, i can get very emotional to what i see as unecessary destruction, especially when it is directed against my favorite characters.
It started with the destruction of Kes and naive as I was, I did hope that someone would correct it some day.
They didn't and they will never do it either and now it's three favorite characters of mine that they have destroyed, Kes, Gowron and Garak.
I'll grant that but it's often hyperbolic and I'm sometimes too literal for my own good.
Well, I am the one I am and whn I think something is wrong, then i speak out about it.
Okay I will be brief.
1. No probably not. She'd die before she even got close to Voyager.
2. Hopefully not- I feel like Kes' short lifespan is an important part of her character in my opinion. Kes wouldn't have the innocence, curiosity, and naivety that really makes her Kes.
3. She would not make it past ensign.
4. Yes pretty much. that's very insightful.
1. No. She would reach Voyager with the help of Q.
2. The Short lifespan was hampering for the character, not to mention downright silly since such a species never would evolve tho more than primates.
Her curiosity, will to learnand explore and her determination is what's makes the character interesting, abilities she would also have had with a human lifespan.
3. Oh yes, she would. She's smart and brave which would be excellent abilities for a chareer in Starfleet.
4. She would probably be interested in the Vulcan culture but i don't think that she would embrace it. She's too sensitive and emotional for that.
[*]I don’t see any reason for Kes to try to reach Earth at all. I’ve always understood her departure in “The Gift” as a transition to a higher plane of existence. If anything, she might appear on Earth someday as an evolved, interdimensional being just to say hello, but I don’t think reaching Earth was ever her goal. So my answer is no.
She wanted to go to Earth. That was expressed in the episode
Eye Of The Needle and in the excellent book
The Black Shore by Greg Cox.
She was actually rescued by Q abefore becoming an energy being and Q offered her a place in the Continuum. But she refused to join the Continuum, instead she wanted a human lifespan and to go back to Voyager whch Q gave her because he needed her to help out with a situation in the Delta Quadrant.
Then she encounteder a Maquis ship which also was lost in the Delta Quadrant, had a brief encounter with Voyager while helping out so sort out a difficult situation, then traveled with the Maquis crew to a planet in te Alpha Quadrant where she spends her time growing flowers and occasionaly goes out on some exciting adventures.
[*]I have stated in this forum before that I'm not a fan of her lifespan being extended. Her short life was a defining part of what made Kes unique. I get why people would want that changed—she’s a beloved character, and I like her a lot too—but this was how she was established. I would have preferred the writers to explore that aspect even more, especially the consequences of her living among species who live many times longer than she does.
As I've written before, that ridiculous life-span was hampering for the character and should have been dealt with already in season 2.
[*]From what we see in “Before and After,” Kes eventually becomes one of the ship’s doctors, and possibly even wears a uniform. But as Troi notes in “Thine Own Self,” Beverly Crusher didn’t need a rank to serve as chief medical officer, and even Seven’s holographic fantasy shows her in uniform without rank insignia. So it’s possible Kes joined Starfleet in title only, wearing blue but without a formal rank. If Janeway had granted her a commission, though, I think Kes would have deserved at least a full lieutenant’s rank, given her relative age and experience.
Here I agree. She could definitely have a career in Starfleet and becoming at least Lieutenant.
[*]I’m not entirely sure what specific issues you have in mind, but it’s definitely plausible that Kes would have taken an interest in Vulcan customs because of her friendship with Tuvok. At the same time, Kes was always curious while also being grounded in her own values. She might have been interested and asked questions, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she would have taken issue with anything. Being curious is one thing; taking a stand is another, and I don’t really see Kes doing the latter here.
As I wrote earlier, She would probably be interested in the Vulcan culture but i don't think that she would embrace it. She's too sensitive and emotional for that.
As for her relationship with Neelix: she never should have been paired with him romantically. Even setting the characters aside, the age gap between the actors was uncomfortable—Jennifer Lien was only 20 in 1995, while Ethan Phillips was already 40. I never saw Kes and Neelix as equals in that relationship. It always felt like Neelix was overly protective to the point of being paternal, and that dynamic made me deeply uncomfortable.
I see no problems with that age gap since it actually happens in The Gray Universe we live in that we have such relationships, often among celebrities.
It was actually quite OK from the start as I see it, especially because he actually rescued her from the kazon and maybe become sort of a hero for her.But it was obvious that they started to drift apart after joining the Voyager crew. kes found new friends and tsarted to work with The Doctor while Neelix had problems to adjust which we could see in all the whims he came up with like cook, Morale Officer, journalist and all that. he also became very jealous and over-protective when it came to kes and that separated them even more. The relationship should have been broken up in season 2, some time after the events in
Parturition and also been handled better than the stupid break-up in the otherwise excellent episode
Warlord.
Instead it could have taken place during two or three episodes.
@Lynx - You seem quite displeased about how Una McCormack chose to end each VOY character's journey. If you don't mind saying, what do you think should have happened to them? We already know about Kes: she gains a normal human lifespan. What about the rest of them? What would you have done differently?
There are a lot of things I'm displeased with when it comes to Una McCormack's writing.
Well, first of all, as I actually wrote in a previous post, I'm not at all interested in stories about them growing old and becoming boring old farts as interesting as Mr. Brown next door. I want to read continuing stories about them in different adventures the years just after Voyager returned home.
I could at least accept that they did have a long eventful career in Starfleet during a time period after Voyager's return to Earth.
The exception for Neelix who I would like to bring back to something more interesting than to rot on that asteroid he ended up on.
Maybe he discovered a species who had developed transwarp or stolen it from the Borg, taken his family with him, reached the Alpha Quadrant and set up a restaurant on deep Space Nine!
