A disproportionate amount of the crew seems to be Irish, Scottish or Japanese

[Tomalak]

The really clunky example for me is everyone acting absolutely SHOCKED that anyone would have their family name first, when Ensign Ro (*not* Ensign Laren) is introduced.

The other one is writing a character called 'Marta Batanides', but then casting an English actress and letting your English leading man pronounce her name in the most English way possible.

Voyager is by no means the franchise's worst offender for Anglo/Hibernocentricism. It's pretty standard for 1990s Star Trek. Most of the writers, guest actors and extras were white American humans.

Garrett Wang's story about the writers not realising that Harry Kim was likely Korean-American and not Chinese sums it up.

But they were 1990s Hollywood writers working to deadlines, not ethnographers. I don't think it was intentional and I don't think it was a studio or network conspiracy to avoid diversity.

 

[Christopher]

The really clunky example for me is everyone acting absolutely SHOCKED that anyone would have their family name first, when Ensign Ro (*not* Ensign Laren) is introduced.

I know, right? Like they never met an East Asian or Hungarian before. (And it's generally presumed that Vulcans put the surname first too.)

The other one is writing a character called 'Marta Batanides', but then casting an English actress and letting your English leading man pronounce her name in the most English way possible.

I don't see an issue there. The character's name is very similar to Arthur Batanides, the actor who played Lt. D'Amato in TOS: "That Which Survives," and he was born in Tacoma, Washington.

Anyway, "Batanides" is of Greek origin while "Marta" is common in many nationalities, not including Greek (where they spell it "Martha"). So the character name doesn't suggest any specific ethnicity, beyond generally European heritage.

A better example for the point you seem to be trying to make would be casting Jill Ireland as a character named "Leila Kalomi."

Voyager is by no means the franchise's worst offender for Anglo/Hibernocentricism. It's pretty standard for 1990s Star Trek. Most of the writers, guest actors and extras were white American humans.

As I've said before, that's no excuse. I'm an American of English, Scottish, and a little French ancestry, but I've managed to populate my fiction with very ethnically diverse characters.

But they were 1990s Hollywood writers working to deadlines, not ethnographers. I don't think it was intentional and I don't think it was a studio or network conspiracy to avoid diversity.

But that's exactly the reason inequality persists -- because it's baked so deep into the system that people don't consciously realize it's there, so if they don't think about it, they unintentionally perpetuate it. They don't have to make an intentional effort to create imbalance in favor of white people, because that imbalance has been the default setting since the dawn of the industry and has enormous inertia keeping it in place. What requires conscious effort is correcting the imbalance, doing the work to learn about cultures beyond your own and seek out diverse names and cast inclusively.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

A better example for the point you seem to be trying to make would be casting Jill Ireland as a character named "Leila Kalomi."

Maybe she was adopted.

 

[UssGlenn]

or just had an ancestor of that name generations ago who thus doesn't have a significant visual impact on her look. Of course its not a real last name anyway, just reminiscent of some.

 

[Christopher]

or just had an ancestor of that name generations ago who thus doesn't have a significant visual impact on her look. Of course its not a real last name anyway, just reminiscent of some.

It's not about whether it can be explained in an imaginary universe, it's about racial inequality in real-world hiring practices. Leila Kalomi was a role that could've gone to an Asian or Pacific Islander actress, and instead they cast a white actress (who, despite being named Ireland, was English). I think that's the kind of problem Tomalak meant to address in bringing up Marta Batanides, though as I said, that's not a good example.

 

[ozzfloyd]

And what about the Dutch? There should be a couple of captains and admirals with Dutch names

 

[Tomalak]

I don't see an issue there. The character's name is very similar to Arthur Batanides, the actor who played Lt. D'Amato in TOS: "That Which Survives," and he was born in Tacoma, Washington.

Anyway, "Batanides" is of Greek origin while "Marta" is common in many nationalities, not including Greek (where they spell it "Martha"). So the character name doesn't suggest any specific ethnicity, beyond generally European heritage.

A better example for the point you seem to be trying to make would be casting Jill Ireland as a character named "Leila Kalomi."

It's not an "issue", I just find it amusing as an Englishman with a Spanish partner. It's like how British football commentators used to make no effort to say the names of foreign players correctly around that time.

Although it turns out I owe Sir Patrick an apology! The script's pronunciation guide does reflect how he says it in the episode, so mea culpa.

As I've said before, that's no excuse. I'm an American of English, Scottish, and a little French ancestry, but I've managed to populate my fiction with very ethnically diverse characters.




But that's exactly the reason inequality persists -- because it's baked so deep into the system that people don't consciously realize it's there, so if they don't think about it, they unintentionally perpetuate it. They don't have to make an intentional effort to create imbalance in favor of white people, because that imbalance has been the default setting since the dawn of the industry and has enormous inertia keeping it in place. What requires conscious effort is correcting the imbalance, doing the work to learn about cultures beyond your own and seek out diverse names and cast inclusively.

Totally. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

They could have done better, but didn't. I think people are generally more cognizant of this kind of thing now, which is to be welcomed.

And hats off to you for leading by example.

 

[Christopher]

They could have done better, but didn't. I think people are generally more cognizant of this kind of thing now, which is to be welcomed.

There were people who were cognizant of it then, and even earlier. I mentioned earlier in the thread how the 1970s sitcom Barney Miller did a better job portraying diversity than the 1980s-90s Star Trek series. "A product of its time" is always an oversimplification, because in any time, there are some people who are more enlightened and progressive than others, some people who try harder than others.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

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[Ragitsu]

 

[Detached Nacelle]

They aren't Irish, Scottish or probably Japanese. They're disproportionately American.

 

[FreddyE]

"Roddenberry" is apparently an Anglicization of the Dutch/German name Rodenberg.

an alternative idea:

"berg" is german for "mountain". "berry" is "beere" in german.

I am very sure though that the name must have been spelled and pronounced "Rottenberry" once. since /t/ and /d/ are closely related alveolar consonants

If we still insist on the theory for the name to be based on a german name:

phonetically "Rotten / Rodden" could be based on the plattdeutsch (a german dilect / language variety spoken in parts of north germany) "roode(n)" for "red".

So where does the name "Roddenberry" come from then?

Well...last names are usually based on:

- nationality
- occupation
- landscapes / features of landscapes
- areas
- specific locations
- traits of people

Roddenberry -> Roode Beere ->Red Berry:

possiblities: somewhen, somewhere a familly lived near a place where lots of red berries grew and / or worked with red berries (wine?)

Edit:

I found hints that apperently -berg sometimes turns into -berry during angliciation...although I can not figure out how you would go from "-berg" to "-berry" phonetically.

In that case..if its really based on "Rodenberg", then we would have "Red mountain". "Rodenberg" from "Rotenberg" ("Roten" is a inflected form of the high germen "rot" for "red")

Edit 2:

phonetically “berg” and “burg” can become very similar in German dialects, so “Rodenberg” may also have been something like “Rotenburg” (red fortress) at some point