A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comment

[Spot's Meow]

Well, I rarely post in Trek Art, but I lurk here, so I've seen what's been going on lately.

I have two things to say. First, about the whole dual voting thing - to alleviate this problem, why not, instead of creating a poll for the contest voting, create a thread at the end of the month where everybody posts the names of the two people they are voting for? In that way, all votes would be accounted for, and it would be more obvious if there was a bunch of newbies voting. If that was found to be the case, then the matter could be further looked into for finding duals. However, if everyone were forced to post who they were voting for, I think the likelihood of any duals would be much smaller due to the lack of anonymity. It would take more guts to do it if you had to actually tell everyone who you were voting for basically. All of this was Flux's idea that he relayed to me, as well as something I had previously been thinking of.

Also, if people think that contest winners are creating the new challenges with the intent of giving themselves a great advantage, then why not disallow winners from entering into their own contests? When I first came here, I was actually surprised that this wasn't already the case. It seemed to make sense to me that the winner of a challenge shouldn't be allowed to compete next month. Otherwise, they could just continue making up challenges that they know they would be best at, and continue to win. However, this brings up the point that a winner creates a challenge because it's something fun that they've been wanting to create/show others. But I've never started a contest, so I don't know if that's usually the feeling of it. I would think that even if you couldn't participate, it would still be fun to see how others interpret your challenge.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on this.

 

[Vektor]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

As some of you may recall, I was never a big fan of overly restrictive contest topics. I always felt it was better to go with a simple theme and let people make of it what they would. Personally, I think restricting this month's contest entries to physical objects was a mistake, but by the same token, I also believe that ThomasModels was within his rights to do so.

For going on two years now, there has really only been one simple rule for these contests: The popular vote winner gets to choose the topic and requirements for the next month's contest. I think that's fair, given that this has always been a small, informal competition with no great reward at stake other than personal satisfaction and the recognition of one's peers. At the same time, because there is no other reward, I happen to think that winning the right to choose a contest topic should mean something. It means the choice is yours, not anyone else's, and if you want to focus on a topic or a medium that not everyone is adept at or able to participate in without the slightest inconvenience then I think you aught to be able to do so under the current rules--or lack thereof.

While I can certainly understand why certain people were unhappy with the topic and requirements for this month's contest and even sympathize with them, I think they should have confined their comments to what should happen with next month's contest rather than stirring up so much ugliness about this one. There's simply no excuse for trying to change the rules in the middle of the game.

Which brings me to the topic of this thread. I think you've taken the right approach, Ptrope, by throwing open a discussion about how these contests are to be conducted. As much as I enjoy the minimalist, freeform structure of the current contests, I have also long feared that a conflict of this sort was pretty much inevitable and probably unresolvable without the application of at least a few additional rules. If such rules are to be applied, it will fall to you, the forum moderator, to do it, like it or not. Having been in your position myself, I do of course have some thoughts on the matter, even though I've only ever participated in one of the contest myself.

First, I think one rule that just about everybody could agree on is that entries should be made specifically for the contest in question. Last month's winner notwithstanding, it hardly seems fair to me that someone can just pluck something out of their portfolio that happens to be applicable and, with no additional time or effort expended, put it up against others who are working their butts off to create something new. You will find prescious few other art contests online or anywhere else that would allow this. I don't offer this as a criticism of Thomas Models' work, which I greatly admire, I just think contest entries should be made for that particular contest.

Second, it should probably be explicitly determined whether or not contest winners have the right to specify which mediums they will allow for the topic they choose. Personally, I think they should be allowed to do so, and the people who are unwilling or unable to participate that month will simply have to live with the fact that they didn't win the right to say otherwise. I'm just afraid it's a slippery slope that could lead to bigger problems. For example, I remember a contest I ran way back in the days before the current contest where I challenged the forum members to create a Trek self-portrait. The contest almost didn't happen because quite a few members complained that they weren't any good at drawing people and it wouldn't be fair to them. The point being, you have to draw the line at some point and simply admit the fact that not everyone is going to be willing or able to participate in every contest.

Having said all that, if the consensus of the members and the decision of the forum moderator is that winners are not allowed to restrict entries to particular mediums, then I think the process of enforcing that rule will take care of itself without requiring the moderator to review every contest topic.

Finally, it may be worth considering to run separate contests for different categories of artwork. It has long been a complaint here in Trek Art that the traditional 2D artists don't seem able to compete with the 3D CGI artists in terms of popularity and general admiration. Whether that's true or not, keeping those two, at least, separate from each other might be beneficial. On the other hand, this would make it all a lot more complicated and may compartmentalize the forum and its members in undesirable ways. Trek Art is, for the most part, one big happy family. I would hate to see it devolve into the cyber equivalent of tribalism.

No, now that I think about it, I'm pretty much opposed to the idea for the all the same reasons I have been when the subject was raised in the past. I just don't see that the benefits would outweigh the costs. Segregating categories is all well and good for other dedicated art forums but there's a unique community aspect to Trek Art that I have never encountered elsewhere and I fear it would be endangered by such a move.

I may have some more suggestions to make later on, but right now it's past my bed time and I have to be to work early in the morning. Food for thought, I hope.

 

[biotech]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

I think if there was a framework set up in place, so that you could make your challange anything you wanted, but the results had to be:

a: 1024*1024 or higher
b: new work for the month, (this wouldnt exclude people from using parts or even whole kits/meshs they have already made) but some new work must be done.
c: any format is acceptable

Those three minor restrictions still leave all the creative aspects of the challenge up to the person running it, while removing from them the technical aspects that can bog down the rules from the start.

 

[The Axeman]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

When I instigated the challenge all those years ago the only rules were these...

1. Entry must be made specifically for the contest, no digging through the portfolio and dusting off an old image that might fit.
This was immediately brought into question by the folks who use photomanipulation and cut/paste as their tools, but I never saw that as much of a problem, because...

2. Show your work in progress.
This rule served several purposes. The first was to generate traffic and interest on the board, getting people posting and talking. Secondly it meant everyone had some input and could comment or help with designs and ideas, promoting community. Lastly it also meant that we knew the image was being created here and now, even if it was a photomanipulation using parts of other pictures.

3. Any medium was eligible, as long as the entry fitted with the theme chosen for that month.
Makes sense, this is art after all and we have 3D, 2D and physical modellers and we never intended to leave anyone out who might enter. The voters would chose between renders, sketches and macaroni pictures for themselves, and since no prize except for kudos was up for grabs it didn't matter. The point was to stimulate and include.

For the first few contests we made a point of trying to pick stimulating topics that excluded the fewest people possible, and often there would be threads created soliciting ideas from the community. I was a loud opponent of people setting rather specific challenges, but was outvoted and went with the flow. I wanted to see one or two word themes, not "build a small romulan vessel" and suchlike.

I think that now we are reaping that particular whirlwind, as over the past year or so the contest has become more and more exclusive. We have more people each month posting their own threads below the contest, asking for people to start a contest building something that will fit with their own tiny niche project and naively await a deluge of skillful entries. It may appear to them that the contest is a means to end for someone with an agenda, and they want in without having won. I am glad to see that we are now addressing this. Anyway, enough rambling...

I would like the contest to stay informal, to stay friendly and to include everyone regardless of skill or medium. If we keep it loose enough while still following the original rules, then it stands a chance. The main thing that actually needs addressed is the choice of topic, and I for one vote for a much vaguer theme than those we have been seeing. No more "build me a..." or "design a...." any more. How about one-word themes like "Disaster!", or "Encounter" or "The Explorer", making it much more condusive to happy thoughts and allowing a freedom of expression worthy of an art board.

3D guys could render away, hand-drawn artists could make what they like and people making macaroni and glitter pictures could make merry too. Ship guys could make beauty shots, artists would make character studies, or whatever the hell they liked as long as the theme applied in some way. That's the contest I'd like to see, and one that I think would be a bit more harmonious in the long run.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by The Axeman:
When I instigated the challenge all those years ago the only rules were these...

1. Entry must be made specifically for the contest, no digging through the portfolio and dusting off an old image that might fit.
2. Show your work in progress.
3. Any medium was eligible, as long as the entry fitted with the theme chosen for that month.

These rules are eminently sensible, and frankly it's surprising that they've been forgotten or discarded in the current go-round.

Concerning Rule #3, you said:

Makes sense, this is art after all and we have 3D, 2D and physical modellers and we never intended to leave anyone out who might enter. The voters would chose between renders, sketches and macaroni pictures for themselves...For the first few contests we made a point of trying to pick stimulating topics that excluded the fewest people possible...
...I think that now we are reaping that particular whirlwind, as over the past year or so the contest has become more and more exclusive...
...I would like the contest to stay informal, to stay friendly and to include everyone regardless of skill or medium. If we keep it loose enough while still following the original rules, then it stands a chance.

I couldn't agree more.

Posted by Masao:
Was the "prize" of choosing the next contest abused here? Maybe, but only if the winner wanted to ensure that he would have an advantage in the next contest. I don't believe that's the case.

Well, this is one of the concerns that's been voiced this month and this thread is one of the results.

Posted by Four Mad Men:
Would it be considered irony when part of the discussion is based on charges of dliberate exclusion of challenge participants and one of the first things that is brought up is the deliberate exclusion of the audience?

No, not if one actually examines the facts here and what's being asked for.

The precipitating event here, and this has to do as well to the relevance of Masao's observation quoted above, is that someone "stuffed the ballot box" last month. Sadly enough, this lack of integrity on the part of either a contestant or a fan of one of the contestants (and T'Bonz has explained elsewhere that it's not possible to determine who benefitted) completely mocks and debases the "it's just a fun competition among friends" nature of the contest.

Axeman's original rules made sense, for the simple reasons he recounts above. There's no reason that the contest shouldn't be conducted as it was originally set up to be; if the basic approach hadn't been a sound and appealing one, it's unlikely that the contest would have become popular to begin with.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by biotech:
I think the 100 posts before you can vote in polls is a good idea.

Not necessarily. We have new people on the board who want to participate in the contest, or just show off their work in general, but can't -- or at least can't post the images in the thread -- because they haven't hit 100 posts yet. Now we should kick them out of being able to vote, too? And this would affect every poll on the board, not just the Trek Art ones. Do you really want the staff to be this harsh to new posters? We might as well stick a big "GET LOST" sign on the front lawn.

 

[biotech]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Ok, how about instead of 100 posts, they just need to have been here for a month before the compition starts.

Either that or make the vote in thread, rather than a poll, ok you lose anominity, but you gain accountability.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

I'm afraid that the arguments against monitoring voting, given the limits of the board software, make a lot of sense. I don't think screening the voters in any way is practical.

One can limit the motives for cheating a little, though. There's nothing that one can do directly about the kind of confusion of values that would cause someone to cheat on a contest which carries no award other than the recognition of the community for one's abilities.

However, the currently potentially exclusionary nature of the rules does provide a reinforcing motivation for that kind of narcissism: it confers authority and a measure of control. It makes the month's winner into a potential gatekeeper.

That motivation can be defused somewhat by returning to Axeman's original three rules.

It's significant that the originator of the contest speaks so clearly to where it's currently going wrong, and can offer part of the solution based on the contest's original design.

 

[Q2UnME]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

I'm at a loss to understand why all the friction this month. I've only participated in a handful of art challenges, usually only the ones when I felt that my skill set and entry wouldn't get me embarrassed beyond belief. I've sat out many CGI heavy contests, admired all the work being done, commented when I felt I had something to contribute and voted like everyone else. I always was under the assumption that one would participate when they chose too, whether they really liked the topic or it fit their skills or both. If the challenge isn't for you, watch from the sidelines - that was my understanding...

This form has become my new home since Enterprise tanked.. I just cannot understand the friction over a simple art challenge...

Q2UnME

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by Q2UnME:
This form has become my new home since Enterprise tanked.. I just cannot understand the friction over a simple art challenge...

Well, see, there was this "cheating" thing...

 

[biotech]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

And the whole, no CGI thing.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by biotech:
And the whole, no CGI thing.

I'm less concerned about the specific restriction on this contest than on the temptations that the right to impose restrictions at whim and without review now appears to provide.

 

[Tiberius Jim]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by The Axeman:
When I instigated the challenge all those years ago the only rules were these...

1. Entry must be made specifically for the contest, no digging through the portfolio and dusting off an old image that might fit.
This was immediately brought into question by the folks who use photomanipulation and cut/paste as their tools, but I never saw that as much of a problem, because...

2. Show your work in progress.
This rule served several purposes. The first was to generate traffic and interest on the board, getting people posting and talking. Secondly it meant everyone had some input and could comment or help with designs and ideas, promoting community. Lastly it also meant that we knew the image was being created here and now, even if it was a photomanipulation using parts of other pictures.

3. Any medium was eligible, as long as the entry fitted with the theme chosen for that month.
Makes sense, this is art after all and we have 3D, 2D and physical modellers and we never intended to leave anyone out who might enter. The voters would chose between renders, sketches and macaroni pictures for themselves, and since no prize except for kudos was up for grabs it didn't matter. The point was to stimulate and include.

For the first few contests we made a point of trying to pick stimulating topics that excluded the fewest people possible, and often there would be threads created soliciting ideas from the community. I was a loud opponent of people setting rather specific challenges, but was outvoted and went with the flow. I wanted to see one or two word themes, not "build a small romulan vessel" and suchlike.

I think that now we are reaping that particular whirlwind, as over the past year or so the contest has become more and more exclusive. We have more people each month posting their own threads below the contest, asking for people to start a contest building something that will fit with their own tiny niche project and naively await a deluge of skillful entries. It may appear to them that the contest is a means to end for someone with an agenda, and they want in without having won. I am glad to see that we are now addressing this. Anyway, enough rambling...

I would like the contest to stay informal, to stay friendly and to include everyone regardless of skill or medium. If we keep it loose enough while still following the original rules, then it stands a chance. The main thing that actually needs addressed is the choice of topic, and I for one vote for a much vaguer theme than those we have been seeing. No more "build me a..." or "design a...." any more. How about one-word themes like "Disaster!", or "Encounter" or "The Explorer", making it much more condusive to happy thoughts and allowing a freedom of expression worthy of an art board.

3D guys could render away, hand-drawn artists could make what they like and people making macaroni and glitter pictures could make merry too. Ship guys could make beauty shots, artists would make character studies, or whatever the hell they liked as long as the theme applied in some way. That's the contest I'd like to see, and one that I think would be a bit more harmonious in the long run.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[ThomasModels]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by Masao:
Have any of the contest explicitly excluded such media? No, but perhaps the very nature of the contest excludes them.

I would have to both agree and disagree with you here. As demonstrated last month, even though no such limitations were expressed in the initial challenge, restrictions added to the challenge attempted to make my entry, a first of it's type, ineligible after the images were posted.

If some people don't feel they have a good chance in a particular contest because of their chosen medium, there's always next month.

Precisely. Those willing and able to make entries during any of these art challenges, have ever complained. Only until now have such complaints made by persons fearful of being bested by a paper cutout.

All of us have been thru kindergarten. All of us have at one time or another created some sort of craft project. Nothing like this has ever been proposed here, hence the type of elementary school challenge. Recent behavior considered, it seems quite fitting.

I'm okay with this month's contest requiring a physical object. I'm willing to cut the winner a bit of slack here. Was the "prize" of choosing the next contest abused here? Maybe, but only if the winner wanted to ensure that he would have an advantage in the next contest. I don't believe that's the case.

I was not aware that the originator of the month's challenge could enter? I had assumed it was another one of the 'unwritten rules'. If I have time during the rest of this month, perhaps I will enter something.

Posted by B.J.
Now, some have said that 3D renders are the big guns on most challenges, and I would for the most part agree. That being said, I think this is the first time that almost all of us are on equal footing. Just something to think about.

I too agree. I know there are some here who 'get it' while others angerly charge in who have no real contributions to make, only to sling crap. "Let's change the contest rules! Let's set up requirments so that this type of injustice never happens again! Get a grip. So much for Infinate Diversity in Infinate Combinations.

Posted by Dennis Bailey
Well, see, there was this "cheating" thing...

And now your libel thing. I would suggest that before you think about continuing to make such posts on something that you know absolutely nothing about, that you check into fact first.

 

[Tiberius Jim]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by ThomasModels:

Those willing and able to make entries during any of these art challenges, have ever complained. Only until now have such complaints made by persons fearful of being bested by a paper cutout.

I assume these persons you speak of includes myself. If this is the case, I assure you my reason for objecting to the rules restrictions has nothing to do with "fear of being bested". As I have said before, I have been "bested" in ever other challenge I have entered and have never had a problem before. Besides, I can't exactly be bested by anyone if I don't enter anything, now can I?

Posted by ThomasModels

Posted by Dennis Bailey
Well, see, there was this "cheating" thing...

And now your libel thing. I would suggest that before you think about continuing to spout off on something that you know absolutely nothing about, that you check into fact first. Very soon your masterful posts such as the one above will become quite embarrassing for you.

[/QUOTE]

Can you point out to me exactly where Dennis implicated you as the party guilty of cheating? I distinctly remember him stating the fact that he didn't know who it was who cheated or benefited from it.

I think you doth protest too much, Thomas...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by Flux Capacitor:
Can you point out to me exactly where Dennis implicated you as the party guilty of cheating? I distinctly remember him stating the fact that he didn't know who it was who cheated or benefited from it.

I think you doth protest too much, Thomas...

Exactly so. As T'Bonz explains it, while it's possible to know who the duals were it's not possible to determine who they voted for. The identity of the beneficiary is not relevant to the reasons for concern; this is a issue that can be discussed and resolved without injecting personal attacks.

 

[biotech]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

In related news, I hear that Micheal Schumacher, 5 times forumla 1 champion heard that a group of amature go cart racers were planing to make go carts from scratch, over the course of one month, and then race them at the end of the month.

He then decided to join them, only he insisted on driving his forumlar one car.

He won the race, naturally, even invited some his fans to watch the race and cheer him on.

The press arrived and said to him
"Micheal, you are a proffesional in your field, you had these people hopelessly outclassed, youve already won more races than anyone else whoes ever lived, why did you feel the need to beat these people?"

And he replied "There was nothing in the rules that said I couldnt use my hugely expensive top of the range car, so why shouldnt I compete?"

The press replied "Because its wrong?"

Schumacher smiled, "what does it matter if its right or wrong, as long as I win?"

True story.



Appart from the true part.

 

[Ptrope]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Sorry I've been absent for a few hours - sleep and stuff, you know? And Road Runner was apparently caught, finally, by Wile E. Coyote, because it's been gone for a few hours, as well.

Apparently a small number of people can't read, I take it? In the first post, I said this is not about individuals' actions or lack thereof in the current or previous challenges, but that apparently hasn't stopped a few people from continuing the bullshit (you know I'm getting fed up when I spell it out!). I don't have the time to review all of the posts at the moment - real life and employment, you know - but rest assured I will be back in a few very short hours to fully drop any hammers I feel need to be dropped.

In the meantime, just to clarify one thing: when I mentioned 1024x1024 as a minimum size, I didn't mean to imply that entries needed to be square, but that 1024 pixels might need to be the minimum dimension in either direction . Hope that clears that up.

I can't say to carry on as you have, because that hasn't been anything to write home about for some of you ...

 

[biotech]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Thats a releif, I didnt fancy the square images much.

 

[largo]

Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

regarding oversight of contest parameters, i'm opposed to it. i don't think that it'll help, certainly no more than general forum feedback on a contest declaration.

one idea might be to put a one-week limit on questions and clarifications to the declared parameters. after that, they're final, and anything which reasonably fits is admissable. of course, if i had an idea which i thought might be ruled out, i might just wait a week before posting.

perhaps the person who declares the contest should not be the one who accepts final submissions and sets up the poll. someone else, say the forum moderator, would note the final parameters, and accept all entries which resonably fit them by their judgement.

regarding contest parameters in general, i don't see a problem with limiting media. CGI is pretty and all, but month after month of CGI dominated contests gets old, too. diversity is good, embrace it. and, if you choose not to, hey, you've got a whole month to work on your own projects.

my 2cp.