BTW, Starship Polaris, did Shatner really say that about Trek XI in your sig? If so, I'm glad that fat sow isn't involved.
A certain test in Trek XI - Spoilers - (I think...)
- Thread starter Roshi
- Start date
Vektor pointed something out in the other no-win scenario thread: Kirk would HAVE to know he'd get caught if he beat the scenario. So, he must want to make some kind of statement bad enough to put his entire future in Starfleet into jeopardy.
To that end, how is it that Spock "rats him out?" It makes it sound as if Kirk thought he could get away with it if he won.
What I'd like to think is Kirk expected to get caught but thought he could talk his way out of punishment. Spock serves on the tribunal as the representative for cadets or junior officers. He makes a case for why Kirk should be expelled.
When Kirk gives his defense, Spock is the only one not moved by what he said, and is the only one who ends up voting for expulsion. Then, to rub salt on the wound, he votes against the commendation, too.
That Kirk was rewarded for his blatant act of individuality would piss off young Spock. That Spock was not convinced by Kirk's defense would piss off young Kirk.
Spock: Rules are rules.
Kirk: Not always.
Over time, Kirk could come to understand why Spock sided with order and rules over the individual. And as he got to know Kirk, Spock would grow to understand and appreciate why the individual must sometimes trump rules.
To that end, how is it that Spock "rats him out?" It makes it sound as if Kirk thought he could get away with it if he won.
What I'd like to think is Kirk expected to get caught but thought he could talk his way out of punishment. Spock serves on the tribunal as the representative for cadets or junior officers. He makes a case for why Kirk should be expelled.
When Kirk gives his defense, Spock is the only one not moved by what he said, and is the only one who ends up voting for expulsion. Then, to rub salt on the wound, he votes against the commendation, too.
That Kirk was rewarded for his blatant act of individuality would piss off young Spock. That Spock was not convinced by Kirk's defense would piss off young Kirk.
Spock: Rules are rules.
Kirk: Not always.
Over time, Kirk could come to understand why Spock sided with order and rules over the individual. And as he got to know Kirk, Spock would grow to understand and appreciate why the individual must sometimes trump rules.
During the climactic battle:
PIKE: What the hell is that kid doing? Yank his ship back in here!
SPOCK: Captain, I suspect that Ensign Kirk is "cheating." (beat) I respectfully suggest that we wait a brief period before interfering.
PIKE: What the hell is that kid doing? Yank his ship back in here!
SPOCK: Captain, I suspect that Ensign Kirk is "cheating." (beat) I respectfully suggest that we wait a brief period before interfering.
One of the things that speaks for this take on things, it gives both young Kirk and Spock room to grow within the film and an arc to resolve or at least settle a bit near the end. Very likely there are some parallel plotlines going on.
They need to start out as "adversaries" so there's a payoff when they realize they're becoming friends by the end of the whole thing.
Sharr
They need to start out as "adversaries" so there's a payoff when they realize they're becoming friends by the end of the whole thing.
Sharr
Kirk didn't believe in no-win scenarios. Even Spock would come to say, "There are always possibilites." That's not true of the no-win scenario. In that way, the test itself is a cheat. It's not reality. Maybe that was Kirk's point.
It has to be something like that. I can't believe Kirk will be portrayed as just some cadet who got so obessessed with a "video game" that he risked his entire future just to beat it. A person like that should be expelled, because that's not a sign of very good character.
When Kirk "cheats," it's for a good reason.
One of the interesting ramifications of Starfleet's reaction to Kirk's less-than-pure resolution is Spock facing his father. Hadn't Sarek just admonished Spock for spurning the Vulcan Science Academy and joining this group of cowboys? I see some Vulcan "rubbing it in".
I don't think that "he doesn't believe in the scenario" is any better a reason for cheating than any other - in a kid that's just callow smuggery, the sort of thing any military academy would rightly be impatient with (to put it mildly).
If you're convinced that you can always find a way to win, that's something you need to demonstrate by accomplishment so that you have the right to claim it as experience - not a "point to be made" by kicking over the board when you find you're losing a game.
Gee, wonderful... yet another opportunity for someone who took his SNL appearance skits far too seriously to show some hate for Shatner.
Of COURSE Dennis made that part of his signature. Dennis is big on putting stuff that's offensive into his signatures or his avatar images... just to piss off people. Dunno WHY someone would get pleasure from doing that, but hey, it's par for the course.
As for the context of Shatner's comment... the guy has been asked, every day for most of 2007, how he feels about his role being recast and his not being in the film. And every time he's been polite, saying that he wishes them well, and that he's happy with his own life... but that if they ask him back he'd be happy to come back.
Finally, after saying the "polite" thing approximately ten jillion times, he responded to yet another assinine "so, how does it feel to be dumped by Star Trek" interview comment (a totally bullshit question to begin with... he's not in the film because it's not required by the story, not because anyone "has it in for Shatner").
And he gave pretty much the same response anyone with even the tiniest hint of sarcasm or wit would eventually give. After saying "I hope that they do well" allll those times, he threw the interviewer the answer he knew that they were fishing for.
You can just picture it now... Shatner thinks to himself "well, they're going to keep asking me this same fucking question, over and over and over, 'til I finally give them the raw meat they're looking for. Might as well do it now, before I finally get mad enough about the morons interviewing me that I say something nasty that I'll really mean!"
And so, when asked for the near-infinity time "How do you feel about being dumped?" He responded "I hope that movie bombs."
And suddenly, folks who really, really WANT Shatner to be bitter and angry about not being in Trek anymore (even though he's in a wildly successful TV series now, at about 70 years old... he's married to a gorgeous woman, raises and trains horses... damn, the guy has a life!)... those people immediately forget the ten billion "I hope the movie does well" and "I wish them all the best" comments, and latch onto this one comment, OBVIOUSLY made as a way of poking fun at the idiocy of the interviewers who keep asking the same question over and over and over and over, as the ONLY TRUE STATEMENT HE'S MADE.
(sigh)
It'd be infuriating if it weren't so utterly SAD.
In answer to your question...
Yes, he said it.
Yes, it's 100% obvious to anyone who doesn't go in with a predisposition for assuming that Shatner kills and eats baby kittens in front of little girls that he was KIDDING.
Of course, since you just called the man a "fat sow" I'm not putting long odds on you taking this with a sense of humor, huh?
Cary L. Brown said:
Gee, wonderful... yet another opportunity for someone who took his SNL appearance skits far too seriously to show some hate for Shatner.
Of COURSE Dennis made that part of his signature. Dennis is big on putting stuff that's offensive into his signatures or his avatar images... just to piss off people. Dunno WHY someone would get pleasure from doing that, but hey, it's par for the course.
As for the context of Shatner's comment... the guy has been asked, every day for most of 2007, how he feels about his role being recast and his not being in the film. And every time he's been polite, saying that he wishes them well, and that he's happy with his own life... but that if they ask him back he'd be happy to come back.
Finally, after saying the "polite" thing approximately ten jillion times, he responded to yet another assinine "so, how does it feel to be dumped by Star Trek" interview comment (a totally bullshit question to begin with... he's not in the film because it's not required by the story, not because anyone "has it in for Shatner").
And he gave pretty much the same response anyone with even the tiniest hint of sarcasm or wit would eventually give. After saying "I hope that they do well" allll those times, he threw the interviewer the answer he knew that they were fishing for.
You can just picture it now... Shatner thinks to himself "well, they're going to keep asking me this same fucking question, over and over and over, 'til I finally give them the raw meat they're looking for. Might as well do it now, before I finally get mad enough about the morons interviewing me that I say something nasty that I'll really mean!"
And so, when asked for the near-infinity time "How do you feel about being dumped?" He responded "I hope that movie bombs."
And suddenly, folks who really, really WANT Shatner to be bitter and angry about not being in Trek anymore (even though he's in a wildly successful TV series now, at about 70 years old... he's married to a gorgeous woman, raises and trains horses... damn, the guy has a life!)... those people immediately forget the ten billion "I hope the movie does well" and "I wish them all the best" comments, and latch onto this one comment, OBVIOUSLY made as a way of poking fun at the idiocy of the interviewers who keep asking the same question over and over and over and over, as the ONLY TRUE STATEMENT HE'S MADE.
(sigh)
It'd be infuriating if it weren't so utterly SAD.
In answer to your question...
Yes, he said it.
Yes, it's 100% obvious to anyone who doesn't go in with a predisposition for assuming that Shatner kills and eats baby kittens in front of little girls that he was KIDDING.
Of course, since you just called the man a "fat sow" I'm not putting long odds on you taking this with a sense of humor, huh?
How dare you make sense! Apologize to the internet NOW!!!
I would think Kirk not believing in the scenario would be at least part of a good reason. Not for ego-driven reasons, but from the point of view that there's no good to be gained from teaching a leader he may face a 100 percent chance of failure. A young kid who expects to live forever doesn't want to think that, either.
A leader deep in a dire situation that keeps deteriorating may begin to think he is facing his real K-M (remember, Saavik brings it up when they are trapped below the planet in TWOK, and Kirk asks her if she believes they're living out the scenario now -- not exactly positive thinking if that crossed her mind). Do you really want leaders who begin to think that maybe they're in a no-win situation? You can't (won't) win them all, but you have to play each one believing you can win.
Sometimes it takes hope, or desperation, or unconventional thinking, or illogic. That's what led Spock to decide to ignite the fuel of the Galileo 7 when he faced a no-win situation. Young Spock may have burned himself and his crewmates up in the atmosphere doing the logical thing and conserving fuel to the end.
We don't know how much of a chance to win Kirk gave himself. Could've been a very slim one. Perhaps even if he had failed his rigged attempt, it may have been enough for him to walk away from it believing he was at least finally tested fairly. Maybe he even surprised himself when he won.
As I intimated in an above post, too, if this were essentially an ego-driven, "I must win" tantrum, that's not good. He must've been able to convince them that it wasn't.
Kirk's point was: In real life there is no such thing as a no-win scenario. Thus, he made the simulation more 'realistic' according to his own view by perhaps allowing a 1% chance of winning. That he then went ahead and won was just icing on the cake.
Maybe he didn't fully expect to actually win and when he did he was like "Oh...shit! Now they'll know I changed the program!" Maybe he was expecting the change to go unnoticed for years.
In any case, the Kirk charm will no doubt convince the SF review board.
Maybe he didn't fully expect to actually win and when he did he was like "Oh...shit! Now they'll know I changed the program!" Maybe he was expecting the change to go unnoticed for years.
In any case, the Kirk charm will no doubt convince the SF review board.
We don't know that the Kobayashi Maru scenario dictates a "100 percent chance of failure." All we know for sure is that it doesn't permit 100 percent success: you can't both stay alive and rescue the stranded ship. Certainly the folks taking the test aren't privy to that information, at least as we see it played out at the beginning of TWOK.
It's not a test of strategic cunning - it's a test of character (explicitly identified as such in TWOK): what does the commanding officer do if he or she have to make a choice where they lose something important no matter what they do?
Of course, when TWOK was written there was no thought given to bringing Spock back for the next film - the character was intended to be dead at the end of the film and stay that way. The intention of the writer was to demonstrate (in at least four instances in the film) that Kirk's way of dealing with tough problems was hopelessly superficial, and at the climax he sits on the Bridge giving orders that everyone understands to be futile while Spock passes his own Kobayashi Maru test and saves the Enterprise.
A twenty-year-old kid who believes that he can always win while never sacrificing anything isn't showing the makings of a great leader, just the absolutism of inexperience. When the time comes that he can't, if it's in a critical situation he's likely to become useless - as Kirk does in TWOK while Spock goes to Engineering and solves the problem.
I suppose it boils down to peoples opinion of cheating,if people respect their hero's cheating,or are disapointed by it.
Anyways whats spock doing at the kobayashi maru test he was probably 3rd in command in the "cage" thats 11 years before "The Menagerie" And the kobayashi maru scene is probably a flashback a younger Kirk scene.Maybe Spocks not there,its only a rumour that he reports kirk.
Also in TOS Kirk would be a very unpopular officer if he was widely known as a cheater,in GRs TOS.In "Court Martial" the Captain? in charge of the enquiry was disgusted at Kirk for thinking kirk lied about his log entry.
Anyways whats spock doing at the kobayashi maru test he was probably 3rd in command in the "cage" thats 11 years before "The Menagerie" And the kobayashi maru scene is probably a flashback a younger Kirk scene.Maybe Spocks not there,its only a rumour that he reports kirk.
Also in TOS Kirk would be a very unpopular officer if he was widely known as a cheater,in GRs TOS.In "Court Martial" the Captain? in charge of the enquiry was disgusted at Kirk for thinking kirk lied about his log entry.
Judging by the setup of the scenario and Kirk’s comments about it in STII, it seems like rescuing the Kobayashi Maru is not possible under any circumstances short of cheating. Saving your own ship and crew may be possible. In fact, presumably at least some command candidates play it by-the-book and choose not to violate the Neutral Zone in the first place, which is probably still considered a valid outcome and just as revealing of the candidate’s character.
We don’t know that Kirk believed that. All we know is that he was unwilling to accept a set of rules that required him to lose no matter what he did. What Kirk demonstrated by “changing the conditions of the test” was his ability to think beyond the apparent boundaries of a bad situation and create a solution rather than just sit back and accept defeat or disaster. That doesn’t mean that a painless solution—or any solution at all—is always possible in every situation, and I think Kirk understood that, but it does set him apart from all the other candidates to whom the idea never even occurred that the conditions of the test itself were just another set of boundaries.
Then again, it could have just been the inexperienced attitude of a twenty-year-old kid, but the instructors who not only declined to expel him but actually gave him a commendation must have believed it could be honed into something exceptional.
If the writers of Trek XI have put half as much thought into this subject as we have, it should be very interesting to watch.
Kirk may believe he is making a valid point if he rebels against that. But how could Starfleet both commend him for making that point, and then keep on forcing the no-win scenario on future generations of testees?
Clearly, Starfleet strongly disagrees with the putative Kirk of the quoted paragraph. Probably they simply think they need people who can cope with failure. And if they think that, their reaction to the putative Kirk's arguments should logically be "Interesting way to put it, kid. Now, you get a failing grade and one demerit for your failure, two more demerits for cheating, and four more for defending the cheating. Dismissed.". This would serve the same goals that the scenario itself serves, and thus be what Starfleet wants and believes in.
Frankly, for Kirk's backstory to make sense, we should simply assume that the test is not taken particularly seriously by Starfleet. It's a fun little romp that may or may not teach the kids a fact or two about life, but it doesn't seriously affect anybody's grade. The laid-back instructors running the test are often bemused by the performances, and frequently dish out commendations for the flimsiest reasons, to bring the smile back to the oh so somber faces of the testees.
The real militaries do have tests like that as well, in addition to no-win scenarios and tests solely intended to frustrate the testee to find out his breaking point. Instructors want to have fun, too. Why did you think Spock, Sulu and McCoy were attending the simulation?
Timo Saloniemi
Very good point. Maybe the test was different in Kirk's time. Maybe it was taken more seriously, too.
True. And Kirk would've argued that coping with failure is different resigning one's self to it. Failure happens. But it can't be acceptable or rationalized. Maybe in Kirk's mind the test taught nothing because nothing could be learned from it except to accept losing.
My guess is Kirk was a solid enough student that his argument was taken seriously as sincere. By the book, he still has to be punished. On the other hand, perhaps his principles and determination did deserve recognition. In other words, he proved he cheated for the "right" reasons.
Yes. As I said above, perhaps especially so after Kirk cracked it. But considering the scene is apparently Kirk facing expulsion for what he did, it must've been taken quite seriously at the time.
Or, maybe the tribunal was perfunctory. Since he did "cheat" even in a minor game, there had to be an inquiry. But, perhaps they never intended to expell Kirk. They just wanted to make it clear to him that regardless of how noble is motives and how positive the end, he would still have to be accountable and explain his actions from within Starfleet's command structure. It is the (quasi)military, after all.
There may be an answer to your question implied by what we see on-screen.
I really doubt that Kirk, who took the test three times as we all know, was told upon his first completion of the test that it was a "no-win scenario." If he HAD been told that, he might have simply walked away in a very annoyed mood but shrugged it off otherwise. I'm sure that he wouldn't have been allowed to take it over, given that piece of knowledge (ie, that the test was intended to be unwinnable, and that the simulation would "cheat" to ensure that outcome no matter what).
So, in Saavik's time, after taking the test (and very likely getting a very similar result to what Lt. Kirk had gotten his first time through... and most likely feeling very similar feelings of annoyance and frustration!), the command school candidate would be informed that the test had been a character test, and no further chances to take the test would be allowed.
I'm inferring some things here, but I think they're logical inferences, don't you?
After Kirk, they CHANGED THE RULES regarding the test. There's still a need to perform this character test, but the "real" evaluation of the candidate might well hang on TWO things, at this point:
1) How well the putative "captain" keeps his or her cool, and if the candidate does all the "right things" (per some check-off sheet)... in other words, all the same things that Kirk would have been reviewed on,
AND
2) Whether the candidate is willing to ACCEPT THE OUTCOME. Seems to me that a candidate who challenges the fairness of the test (AFTER performing adequately DURING the test itself) is probably MORE likely to get a Command Branch posting than someone who just says "meh, oh well... it's just a job, it's just a test, who cares?"
Don't you think?
Except that I think you're incorrect about what "Starfleet wants." Starfleet wants their commanders to be the most likely officers to survive, succeed, and complete their assigned tasks with the least total cost (in terms of time, manpower, equipment, whatever).
You seem hung up on how Kirk has to be punished. How you think he SHOULD have been punished. Fine, you can feel that way. And you know what? I'm sure that at least a couple of members of the Board of Review going over his "misconduct" will share the opinion you're holding.
The thing is, we already know he won't be. So... either you can piss and moan about how Starfleet is making a mistake (which, I suspect, some of Kirk's classmates will certainly do as well!) or you can try to figure out how this could happen and NOT be wrong.
Seriously... is there NO SITUATION that you can imagine, under any circumstances, where it would NOT be inappropriate and morally wrong for Kirk to do what he's known to have done? And furthermore, some way wherein a commendation would not only not be inappropriate but would actually be DESERVED?
C'mon... you're a smart guy, you oughta be able to come up with a scenario or two that doesn't involve "the bad guy getting away with cheating," can't you?
Frankly, I tried to do the latter... By first presenting the situation as I feel it should play out if Starfleet did hear Kirk's argument and pass judgement on his test on basis of that - and then implying that the situation would be more easily resolved if Starfleet did not judge Kirk by his putative words, but instead completely ignored those words (if they were ever spoken).
Kirk would then get his passing grade on his performance in the test, and the commendation either also on his performance, or then on the way he cheated, plus a punishment(unmentioned in ST2, for obvious reasons) for cheating. He has been simultaneously punished and rewarded in another context, too...
They never exactly say Kirk would have been rewarded for cheating. They never say he wasn't punished for cheating, either. The way Kirk, Spock and McCoy alike refer back to the incident makes it sound like a standard student prank, not a major career-defining moment. Kirk could be proud of having been punished for what he believed in, but would still rather like to mention the adjoining commendation.
Timo Saloniemi
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