A certain test in Trek XI - Spoilers - (I think...)

[aridas sofia]

The God Thing said:
Is there any military academy in the history of ancient or modern warfare that would waste time subjecting its cadets to a "no win" battle scenario, and then actually reward one for cheating? The KB absolutely reeks of an arbitrary invention - much like that "prefix code" idiocy later in the film - by two Hollywood parasites (Bennett and Meyer) who never even experienced boot camp let alone officer training and indoctrination.

TGT

I'm the last one in the world to defend the shit that came from the incredible two-headed transplant that was Bennett-Meyer, but on the question of the test I think that maybe, just maybe, it was meant to allude to the extensive psychological evaluations suffered not by military officer candidates, but by astronauts.

 

[ancient]

The God Thing said:
Is there any military academy in the history of ancient or modern warfare that would waste time subjecting its cadets to a "no win" battle scenario, and then actually reward one for cheating? The KB absolutely reeks of an arbitrary invention - much like that "prefix code" idiocy later in the film - by two Hollywood parasites (Bennett and Meyer) who never even experienced boot camp let alone officer training and indoctrination.

TGT

Fan ranting can't undo the fact that Nick & Co. saved Trek after the huge fiasco that was TMP. Their contributions may not have been huge or faux-epic but they were fun and exciting.

The Kobiashi Maru was explained just fine in the context of the story, and served it's purpose both as a dramatic device at the beginning, and a mirror for Spock's 'solution' to the real no-win situation at the end.

It all goes back to the whole thing about a movie being good, and how that saves it from being nit-picked to death. Except of course by fans with a bone to pick about the direction it took the movies. Not that they hurt the box-office, thank goodness.

 

[USS Mariner]

Yule Gibbons said:

I'm the last one in the world to defend the shit that came from the incredible two-headed transplant that was Bennett-Meyer, but on the question of the test I think that maybe, just maybe, it was meant to allude to the extensive psychological evaluations suffered not by military officer candidates, but by astronauts.

If it wasn't in Hornblower or Dick, it ain't there.

 

[Franklin]

ancient said:

The God Thing said:
Is there any military academy in the history of ancient or modern warfare that would waste time subjecting its cadets to a "no win" battle scenario, and then actually reward one for cheating? The KB absolutely reeks of an arbitrary invention - much like that "prefix code" idiocy later in the film - by two Hollywood parasites (Bennett and Meyer) who never even experienced boot camp let alone officer training and indoctrination.

TGT

Fan ranting can't undo the fact that Nick & Co. saved Trek after the huge fiasco that was TMP. Their contributions may not have been huge or faux-epic but they were fun and exciting.

The Kobiashi Maru was explained just fine in the context of the story, and served it's purpose both as a dramatic device at the beginning, and a mirror for Spock's 'solution' to the real no-win situation at the end.

It all goes back to the whole thing about a movie being good, and how that saves it from being nit-picked to death. Except of course by fans with a bone to pick about the direction it took the movies. Not that they hurt the box-office, thank goodness.

The test in TWOK was a good plot device. It provides a "what the hell?" moment the first time you see it in the movie. It comes back to haunt Kirk in the end where his "win" costs him the life of his best friend.

As a real scenario, it makes sense only if the no-win part of it can be kept a secret. It isn't. Everyone knows there's no way to beat the K-M. So, what kind of test of character is that? What's it teach? Someday you're going to essentially be ambushed and face very long odds and there's nothing you can do about it? Kirk proved that wrong in "real life" throughout his career. His entire career was a testimony to the fallaciousness of the K-M.

That is what Kirk had right about K-M, it NEEDED a way to win. However slim. It is important to teach young officers they will face long odds and they can't always win. It IS wrong to teach young officers there are situations where they can't win, period.

If the "speech" Kirk gives to keep himself from being expelled makes these points, then good for him. It would be a good character-building scene, and foreshadow his entire career.

We still have to figure out how he goes from near expulsion to a commendation. This speech, pointing out the flaw in the test of character, would do it. Of course, Starfleet apparently goes back to administering it the same way for years to come. That part is stupid. How can it test character when is has to be all over Starfleet and the Academy that there's no way to win going in?

Remember, too, David Marcus was the only one to call what Kirk did cheating. Spock called it Kirk's solution. McCoy said he defeated it -- or words to that extent, I don't remember.
Kirk may have bent regulations when needed, but he had integrity and was a good officer when push came to shove. We never saw him "cheat," especially for personal gain.

 

[scotthm]

ancient said:
The Kobiashi Maru was explained just fine in the context of the story, and served it's purpose both as a dramatic device at the beginning, and a mirror for Spock's 'solution' to the real no-win situation at the end.

Yes, it served its purpose, i.e. there is no reason to revisit it.

---------------

 

[ancient]

scotthm said:

ancient said:
The Kobiashi Maru was explained just fine in the context of the story, and served it's purpose both as a dramatic device at the beginning, and a mirror for Spock's 'solution' to the real no-win situation at the end.

Yes, it served its purpose, i.e. there is no reason to revisit it.

---------------

Sure there is, if it again serves a purpose. This time to show Kirk's character to a new audience and an interesting way for him to meet Spock.

 

[Plum]

Umm... seems obvious to me this test, and yea it's that one where Kirk 'cheated' when a cadet, points out that this story DOES TAKE PLACE IN TREK CANON. Right? Obvious? Hellooo? Is this thing on???

That's why this is a big plot point, to point out to fans this story will follow Star Trek canon. So I would imagine, given Orci's comments alone.

 

[Arlo]

scotthm said:

ancient said:
The Kobiashi Maru was explained just fine in the context of the story, and served it's purpose both as a dramatic device at the beginning, and a mirror for Spock's 'solution' to the real no-win situation at the end.

Yes, it served its purpose, i.e. there is no reason to revisit it.

---------------

Well by that logic, the three seasons of Star Trek served their purpose, there was no reason to revisit those characters at all in subsequent movies and TV shows.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Arlo said:
Spock in ST2: "As I recall you took the test three times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique?"

Ok, I forgot that bit, and I suppose if one was to retro-interpret the line as almost sarcastic given what may end up being his considerable role in the event, then one could rationalize it. Previous to this Trek XI plot point, I think the line was simply to be taken as Spock's knowing what Kirk did in the past, not any actual involvement.

I still see it as a contrivance (why must the big 3 just *happen* to have been so involved with each other?), but I guess this is all speculative until popcorn is in our laps.

You're assuming that the entire "big 3" are present at the same time.

I think it's very likely that Spock was present in some form when Lieutenant Kirk was at Command School. I don't see him as another Command School student, however. More likely than not, he was at the academy for some other purpose... either as an instructor, or for advanced science branch studies, or both. (Similarly, Lieutenant Kirk was both in Command School and was teaching classes... including one with Gary Mitchell as a student... and at that same point he met a "little blonde lab tech" he almost married... who I assume was Carol Marcus).

This stuff isn't "fanboy" because it's already there. That, by itself, doesn't make it "fanboy." It's not "fanboy" because we know it.

It COULD be "fanboy." But ONLY if it's presented in a way that isn't really important to the telling of the story.

I've been saying, for a YEAR now, that much of this story is going to be about "who these guys are and how they got their start." I'm still not convinced, entirely, that there's any actual TIME TRAVEL in the plot (do we have ANY confirmation of that?). I see it as being just as likely that it's a story told from the perspective of Nimoy's Spock. So far, other than "Ain't it Cool News" saying otherwise (which I don't really take too seriously)... there's no actual EVIDENCE to suggest otherwise... is there?

We know that Eric Bana will be in the film, that he's RUMORED to play a villain, and that his character is RUMORED to be a Romulan, and that the name on the call-sheets has been "Nero" (which, honestly, seems just a little bit TOO "contrived" to not question, at least a little bit!).

We were told that the "Guardian of Forever" would be in the flick. But that turned out to be untrue.

We know that we'll see George and Winona Kirk. We know that we'll see Sarek and Amanda. We know that we'll see Christopher Pike. We know that we'll see Kirk and Spock at the Academy. We know that we'll see Chekov, Uhura, Sulu, and Scotty. The only REAL thing that all of this tells us about the film is that the film is set in multiple timeframes (which proves NOTHING about the actual plot... except that it won't be a typical, linear "adventure of the week" show).

Guys... you're calling that "fanboy" but as far as I can tell (not claiming that JJ told me anything in person, mind you!), this could be fundamental to the type of story that JJ wants to tell.

If it's just thrown in as a "bone" for the fans... then it doesn't belong in there at all. But if the movie isn't a "rollicking romp with big 'splosions" but is more about PEOPLE... and if the people in question, really, are Jim Kirk and Spock (everyone else being in "supporting character" roles)... seems to me that this is pretty far from "fanboy" and is probably FUNDAMENTAL to the story JJ Abrams wants to tell.

We may see more about "how Jim Kirk became who we got to know later on" in other timeframes... including (but not necessarily limited to) the first time Kirk meets a civilian Leonard McCoy, and at least one period set on the TOS Enterprise. (Not to mention the inevitable 24th or 25th century scenes with Nimoy as Spock.)

 

[Balthier the Great]

I think the test could be useful story-wise. It's a test of will and character, and hopefully it will reveal something about Kirk that we really don't know yet.

I think if the test is about "how to face death" (I'm trying to remember the exact quote here) then maybe it could show that Young Kirk is afraid, and he most afraid of failure. That would seem like good character development to me.

But I don't know what the JJ team has in mind here. It could just be a giant double scoop of fanwank in fanwankary sauce. Wait and see.

 

[ancient]

Well, in "The Cage" Spock is a science officer. "Number One" is the first officer. So here is a possible theory:

Pike & Co. are moving on, except Spock. Pike recommends he go for a command position.

Spock returns to the academy for additional command-level classes and possibly acts as an instructor for science students

At the same time Kirk is in the command level course, and also possibly an instructor, depending on how the timeline works out.

Kirk goes for Captain, Spock goes for First officer, both get a promotion and end up in their familiar positions.

Or something like that.

 

[Arlo]

Spock said in TOS he did not desire command. I don't see him in command training.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Arlo said:
Spock said in TOS he did not desire command. I don't see him in command training.

I think he would have needed command training to be XO of the Enterprise....

He might not have wanted his own ship (which is a strange conceit of Star Trek & XO's) it doesn't follow he didn't have command training.

Sharr

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Mariner Class said:

Yule Gibbons said:

I'm the last one in the world to defend the shit that came from the incredible two-headed transplant that was Bennett-Meyer, but on the question of the test I think that maybe, just maybe, it was meant to allude to the extensive psychological evaluations suffered not by military officer candidates, but by astronauts.

If it wasn't in Hornblower or Dick, it ain't there.

Military officers (not CANDIDATES, but real officers, like Kirk or Saavik would have been when they took this test) DO take this sort of evaluation.

There are a variety of exercises we got put through. And yes, there were "no win" situations we got put into, to see how we deal with it.

(There are also other "contingency training" programs... including one where you are put into a POW situation and the folks there literally try to break you... if you break, you'll never get a position of responsibility, though you may serve in less critical positions.)

Military training (and as far as I'm concerned, Starfleet is military, no matter what a latter-years Roddenberry may have attempted to say) is all about pushing you to see how you respond to tough situations under conditions where, if you fail, the consequences are to you and to you alone... as opposed to, say, causing your ship to be lost with all hands, just for example.

It's a test of your character... and of your mettle... not of your "plug-and-chug routine knowledge" skills.

So... Kirk's "cheating" is entirely appropriate. Because the purpose of the test was to see how he'd handle a "no-win situation" and his response was to never stop fighting... and to think outside of the box (as the saying goes) and to FIND A WAY to win... one that nobody else believed was there.

If I were Kirk, at that point, I'd make a speech telling the officers on the Board of Inquiry that if they were looking for Starship Captains who would casually accept defeat at the hands of the Klingons, then they DO need to throw him out... because he'll do everything in his power to save his ship, his crew, and to complete his mission... even if the ENEMY believes that they've created a situation which is hopeless for him.

Turn it around... make the faculty realize that they were thinking like a hostile commander, and Kirk found a way to defeat their plans. Wouldn't it be a GOOD IDEA to have starship commanders who won't give up in the face of supposely "hopeless odds?"

That's what will get Jim Kirk this "turnaround" from being on the verge of being kicked out, to being on the "fast track." It will also seriously piss off at least two or three members of the Board of Inquiry, though, I'm sure.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

You know, if people want to argue that this is a poor idea there's not much that can be said.

I'd like someday to see a fan suggestion for a way for these two to meet that's not at best a bore and at worst laugh-out-loud pathetic.

The leaked scene is a good idea, and yet another indication that these people are making a better movie than the previous TOS-based flicks. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[pookha]

spock is a computer expert.
if spock had returned for more command training and to act as an instructor i could see him being bought in if the brass suspected something.
i also could see spock defending jim after discovering what he did.

 

[Arlo]

^
Interior, bridge of the USS Enterprise. It has those goose-neck "War of the Worlds" things at the consoles. SPOCK is at his science station, looking into his nickelodeon viewer. Turbolift doors open, JAMES KIRK steps out.

Yeoman: Captain on the Bridge!

Spock turns away from his flip-movie of a jazzy fan dancer, stands at attention and looks over his new captain. He notices a similar appearance to his former captain, Christopher Pike, before he had that accident in the rubber cement factory.

Spock: Welcome aboard, Captain.
Kirk: Thank you...you must be Mr. Spock, my first officer.
Spock: Affirmative.
Kirk: Awesome. You play chess?

And...SCENE!

 

[Sharr Khan]

pookha said:
spock is a computer expert.
if spock had returned for more command training and to act as an instructor i could see him being bought in if the brass suspected something.
i also could see spock defending jim after discovering what he did.

It clicks for me that Spock would both report Kirk's messing with the equipment (something I can't see even a pseudo-military simply laughing off without convening a board of inquiry) then in the midst of the investigation become his advocate simply because he realized it was the right thing to do when he found Kirk's reason agreeable.

This is actually a very solid way to begin their friendship.

Sharr

 

[Opus]

The God Thing said:
Is there any military academy in the history of ancient or modern warfare that would waste time subjecting its cadets to a "no win" battle scenario, and then actually reward one for cheating? The KB absolutely reeks of an arbitrary invention - much like that "prefix code" idiocy later in the film - by two Hollywood parasites (Bennett and Meyer) who never even experienced boot camp let alone officer training and indoctrination.

TGT

So, REAL Star Trek fans should hate TWOK now too?

Maybe we should burn GR in effigy just to be sure...

 

[Opus]

North Pole-aris said:
You know, if people want to argue that this is a poor idea there's not much that can be said.

I'd like someday to see a fan suggestion for a way for these two to meet that's not at best a bore and at worst laugh-out-loud pathetic.

The leaked scene is a good idea, and yet another indication that these people are making a better movie than the previous TOS-based flicks. I'm looking forward to it.

I was wondering if there was someone in here who thought the same as I. I like the idea. It's a nice tie-in.