A certain test in Trek XI - Spoilers - (I think...)
- Thread starter Roshi
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TOS and TMP Kirk wouldn't cheat in any test.The scene doesn't work.Even Harve Bennet said Kirk wouldn't cheat to Nick "I bet that klingon bitch killed her own father" Meyer in 1982.He wanted Meyer to take the scene out but Nick 
"LET THEM DIE" Meyer manipulated Bennet by calling him a tv producer.So Bennet backed down and let the scene stay.
This was part of a reimagining of the Kirk character post TMP by Bennet and co,shatner did it as well.
Remember GRs Trek the 23rd century was a world where people respected each other,no poverty,war etc thats why people in the seventies embraced it.the characters were decent people.Scotty wouldn't say "I bet that klingon bitch killed her own father" And young Kirk wouldn't cheat on a test he had failed.Remember TNG Wesley Crusher refused to cheat in a test.
Because they were brought up properly.
Yes Nick Meyers Kirk would cheat on the kobayashi maru test
"LET THEM DIE" Meyer manipulated Bennet by calling him a tv producer.So Bennet backed down and let the scene stay.This was part of a reimagining of the Kirk character post TMP by Bennet and co,shatner did it as well.
Remember GRs Trek the 23rd century was a world where people respected each other,no poverty,war etc thats why people in the seventies embraced it.the characters were decent people.Scotty wouldn't say "I bet that klingon bitch killed her own father" And young Kirk wouldn't cheat on a test he had failed.Remember TNG Wesley Crusher refused to cheat in a test.
Because they were brought up properly.
Yes Nick Meyers Kirk would cheat on the kobayashi maru test
Why are some people stating that McCoy is also there during the Academy scenes, there has been nothing confirmed and not even any rumours about the McCoy character being present in that part of the movie.
As for cheating Kirk and how its supposedly out of character, in the end it would appear that the academy where so impressed with Kirk manipulating the test so that he could win that he was apparently fast tracked to become the youngest captain ever at that point, clearly no one had done it before and though there where concerns just after the act it seems people high up then came to their senses and realised they are dealing with their best ever recruit.
GRs world of no cheating, lying, war, jealousy and whatever else is an impossibility....
As for cheating Kirk and how its supposedly out of character, in the end it would appear that the academy where so impressed with Kirk manipulating the test so that he could win that he was apparently fast tracked to become the youngest captain ever at that point, clearly no one had done it before and though there where concerns just after the act it seems people high up then came to their senses and realised they are dealing with their best ever recruit.
GRs world of no cheating, lying, war, jealousy and whatever else is an impossibility....
Then I like the Nick Meyers Kirk better, and I think he did the character a service. The Kirk that would cheat on the Kobayashi Maru test is an interesting Kirk, and added an intriguing layer to the Kirk we already know. At least it was to me, but obviously opinions differ here.
I don't quite understand the hatred for the "I bet that Klingon bitch killed her own father" line. Are our 23rd century heroes supposed to be beyond swearing in stressful situations?
I don't quite understand the hatred for the "I bet that Klingon bitch killed her own father" line. Are our 23rd century heroes supposed to be beyond swearing in stressful situations?
...Not to mention boring and laughing-out-pathetic. 
Frankly, the only bothersome aspect of using the no-win scenario is if the ship to be saved is named Kobayashi Maru. Now that would mean that every cadet or young officer taking the test would know beforehand what it is all about. And nothing in the source material calls for that: the test as per ST2:TWoK is the "no-win scenario", only called the "Kobayashi Maru test" in the context of Saavik's recent performance and Spock's ironic reference to it.
I could easily see the angry young Kirk rig the test so that it could be won, only to later find out that winning was not the goal. Admiral Kirk spilled the secret to Saavik right after her performance, presumably because she passed with flying colors - but Cadet/Lieutenant Kirk need not have found out the true nature of the test until his third try.
As already stated, the real military often engages in no-win scenarios, impossible tasks and other means of demoralizing its personnel in order to estimate stress tolerance. Such tests may well be run several times, to observe changes in reactions. The idea of three consecutive no-win scenarios for poor Kirk is not too far-fetched, provided his instructors find value in further watching this monkey perform.
The only downside is that no-win scenarios are pretty damn expensive. Would Starfleet pay for all those stage hands, extras, repair crews and spare parts just to let Kirk fail one more time?
Timo Saloniemi
Frankly, the only bothersome aspect of using the no-win scenario is if the ship to be saved is named Kobayashi Maru. Now that would mean that every cadet or young officer taking the test would know beforehand what it is all about. And nothing in the source material calls for that: the test as per ST2:TWoK is the "no-win scenario", only called the "Kobayashi Maru test" in the context of Saavik's recent performance and Spock's ironic reference to it.
I could easily see the angry young Kirk rig the test so that it could be won, only to later find out that winning was not the goal. Admiral Kirk spilled the secret to Saavik right after her performance, presumably because she passed with flying colors - but Cadet/Lieutenant Kirk need not have found out the true nature of the test until his third try.
As already stated, the real military often engages in no-win scenarios, impossible tasks and other means of demoralizing its personnel in order to estimate stress tolerance. Such tests may well be run several times, to observe changes in reactions. The idea of three consecutive no-win scenarios for poor Kirk is not too far-fetched, provided his instructors find value in further watching this monkey perform.
The only downside is that no-win scenarios are pretty damn expensive. Would Starfleet pay for all those stage hands, extras, repair crews and spare parts just to let Kirk fail one more time?
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk beats the no-win scenario. That's a red flag to his superiors right there that something is wrong. It's not supposed to happen. There would be an investigation. So, I'm not sure about the idea that Kirk was ratted out by Spock. It would make more sense if Spock were the lead investigator to find out HOW Kirk tampered with the simulation (or if he had help).
It just doesn't make sense to me that Kirk would be standing before this board demanding to see his ACCUSER. That insinuates that without Spock, he'd have pulled it off.
It would make more sense if he was wishing to see the person who was actually able to figure out exactly what he did. Gave his superiors the bill of goods, so to speak.
Perhaps Kirk was rather proud of what he did, thinking it was undetectable. Perhaps Kirk actually had some admiration for this Vulcan who figured it all out. Perhaps (over time, maybe) the Vulcan appreciated Kirk's explanation for what he did. I could see them getting off on that foot.
Because one of our hero's hatred toward the klingon chancellors daughter,to think that a woman would actually kill her own father to start a war shows a complete lack of respect for the individual.And the words "klingon bitch" and the way doohan delivered the line.
Nichelle Nichols was on record as refusing to say "but would you want your daughter to marry one",nichelle didn't back down.
William Shatner refused to say "let them die" and only agreed to say it if meyer would insert a quick scene where kirk would show regret for saying it as though he didn't mean to say it.They shot it but as shatner said "he's still waiting for meyer to put it in".
And Harve Bennet did say to meyer "Kirk wouldn't cheat about the kobayashi maru test" then meyer called him a tv producer so bennet backed down.
so its not about a couple of fanboys moaning,Meyer was a freakin nightmare for Some fans of TOS.
Bennet and Nimoy(TUC) gave in to meyer,nimoy was supposed to be exec producer on TUC.
According to AICN, Kirk beats the KM by:
Dunno how legit this is, but it's a hysterically nice character touch for young, brash horndog Jim Kirk. I can so see it happening.
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35181
pursuading a chick he's banging to change the test
Dunno how legit this is, but it's a hysterically nice character touch for young, brash horndog Jim Kirk. I can so see it happening.
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35181
But the question is, would the character of Montgomery Scotty have any respect for the individual that is Azetbur?
I don't see why he would. He has always treated Klingons as animals, openly expressing disgust, frequently a desire to kill some. In general, he is the TOS character least likely to think well of an enemy, and the most likely to add derogatory expletives to his speech.
Chekov in TOS was a racist through and through, and especially with Klingons. For Uhura, such behavior would have been somewhat out of place, mainly because Uhura in TOS never said or did much in the first place, and usually tried to use humor to alleviate a situation, rather than expletives to aggravate it. But then again, Uhura in TUC was at her best girlish self, commenting on table manners in a moment of political, well, momentousness.
I see nothing wrong about these aspects of TUC, as regards faithfulness to the original characterizations, requirements of the drama, or direction and delivery. There may have been forces of good and evil slugging it out in the background to get the movie done, but the end result does not warrant such critique just because the early stages were less than perfect.
Timo Saloniemi
Don't be juvenile, here. This is the sort of argument I expect from children... an "all or nothing" perspective.
This movie is, in large part, about how a young kid from Iowa (I still believe we'll be seeing our first glimpse of Jim Kirk at about the age of 12) who's not anybody special becomes the "legendary James T. Kirk."
What makes him stand out? What convinced the people running Starfleet to give him a Starship command in his early 30s, when most officers to achieve that position would have been a decade or so older? Kirk WAS the youngest officer ever given Starship command, after all... that's "canon."
This scenario... both as it was originally written (in TWOK) and here, serves a purpose. Not to "be all fanwanky." But to TELL THE AUDIENCE ABOUT WHO THIS GUY IS.
I absolutely find LAUGHABLE how some of the namby-pamby sorts find this to be "telling us how bad Kirk is." To all who say that... I have to respond... "Get a life! Move out of your mother's basements! Kiss a girl! ... etc, etc..."
Kirk got his command, and became legendary in his exploits, exactly BECAUSE he didn't always play by the rules. This isn't something that's being invented by the filmmakers now, or that was invented by Meyers and Co for TWOK. Kirk was ALWAYS a "think outside of the box" officer.
For God's sake, Roddenberry molded Kirk largely on the popular public perception (whether you believe it's ACCURATE or not) of JFK, as well as Hornblower, and this was set up in a time where "challenging of authority" was a VERY POPULAR attitude among the audience. Kirk REGULARLY stood against the "expected behavior" he was directed to follow... but he always came out on top.
If some of you who seem to be finding this UPSETTING were rewriting these TOS episodes, you'd probably have Kirk beaming Ambassador Fox down first, as directed, in "A Taste of Armageddon"... or simply leaving the crew of the Galileo 7 to die, AS ORDERED... wouldn't you?
KIRK WAS A RULEBREAKER. But he broke them when it made sense to break them. He put morality... and yes, "getting the job done"... above the "letter of the law."
This is what makes someone stand out. Had he simply gone along with the rest of the pack, he'd never have stood out from that pack.
If you REALLY want James T. Kirk to be a "sheeple," then I don't want to see the same show you do.
I agree with only one criticism, above... that is, the perception (establishing AFTER TWOK, not on-screen, mind you) that "everybody" knows about the Kobayashi Maru test. As far as we know, only Kirk, Spock, Saavik, and those who took part in the test know ANYTHING about it.
Just like I've never told anyone the specifics of the "no-win situations" I was put into in my own officer training (Army, not navy... certainly not "Starfleet"... but still a NORMAL PART OF TRAINING!), I'd expect this to be kept a closely guarded secret.
Then again, I'd also expect the ship to get renamed in the scenario from time to time...
^^^^^^^^^^^
I'd take issue with the idea Kirk was a rulebreaker. At least not a chronic one. As a lot of field commanders in the military learn, regulations have weaknesses and contradictions in practice. When necesary, Kirk adapted to a situation in order to solve the problem -- or carry out an order -- rather than adhere to the letter of the regulation and risk failure. In other words, when a regulation got in the way of carrying out an order, carrying out orders trumped the regulation. That is good officer thinking, not a loose cannon. As a friend of mine in the military once said, sometimes it's easier to apologize than to get permission.
In other words, in the frontier, Kirk adapted regulations or saw the gray areas that better fit actual situtaions and enhanced the chances of success. I think only his enemies saw him as a maverick or loose cannon. While he bent and broke regulations, as I remember it, the only time he openly defied orders was when he set out to rescue Spock. And for that he was punished. The other times, he was carrying out orders.
I also don't think he was someone for whom the ends justfied the means -- as can be the case with rulebreakers. He had more integrity and a sense of duty than that. He would not have been captain of a starship for very long if he was constantly openly defying rules.
I'd hope than in the speech he supposedly gives in defense of himself for "cheating" in the no-win test we see that part of his character. That he does have a moral code and a philosophy that guides his actions. And, that Spock sees that and respects it.
In other words, I hope the point of the scene would be to establish that Kirk may be brash, but he is principled in an admirable -- if unconventional -- way. He is not simply some ego-driven, self-centered over-achiever who chafes against authority and lives by his own rules.
I'd take issue with the idea Kirk was a rulebreaker. At least not a chronic one. As a lot of field commanders in the military learn, regulations have weaknesses and contradictions in practice. When necesary, Kirk adapted to a situation in order to solve the problem -- or carry out an order -- rather than adhere to the letter of the regulation and risk failure. In other words, when a regulation got in the way of carrying out an order, carrying out orders trumped the regulation. That is good officer thinking, not a loose cannon. As a friend of mine in the military once said, sometimes it's easier to apologize than to get permission.
In other words, in the frontier, Kirk adapted regulations or saw the gray areas that better fit actual situtaions and enhanced the chances of success. I think only his enemies saw him as a maverick or loose cannon. While he bent and broke regulations, as I remember it, the only time he openly defied orders was when he set out to rescue Spock. And for that he was punished. The other times, he was carrying out orders.
I also don't think he was someone for whom the ends justfied the means -- as can be the case with rulebreakers. He had more integrity and a sense of duty than that. He would not have been captain of a starship for very long if he was constantly openly defying rules.
I'd hope than in the speech he supposedly gives in defense of himself for "cheating" in the no-win test we see that part of his character. That he does have a moral code and a philosophy that guides his actions. And, that Spock sees that and respects it.
In other words, I hope the point of the scene would be to establish that Kirk may be brash, but he is principled in an admirable -- if unconventional -- way. He is not simply some ego-driven, self-centered over-achiever who chafes against authority and lives by his own rules.
Except that it isn't. That is, nowhere onscreen has it been stated or suggested that Kirk would be the youngest person in Starfleet history to either make Captain rank or attain the position of starship captain. (One might interpret a certain scene in TNG "Conspiracy" as indicating that Picard might once have held that honor, though.)
Also, Kirk is given something of a backstory in the dialogue of assorted TOS episodes, painting him as somewhat shy and by-the-book, possibly unsympathetic towards his comrades. The no-win test, and cheating therein, might be the moment when all that changes...
Timo Saloniemi
If 'winning' is not the goal, why would Kirk be given three opportunities to take the test? I don't quite see how one might fail the test, yet be thought highly enough of as command material to be given multiple further chances.
This whole idea of Kirk taking such a test multiple times, and finally cheating to 'pass' (in his own mind) just doesn't ring true. What it makes me wonnder is, does Starfleet consider Kirk to have failed his first two Kobayashi Maru tests? If so, why does he command a starship?
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It could be his superiors were intrigued by his tenaciousness in this area. He couldn't let go of the idea that he lost -- especially if he thinks he did everything he could. Because they do see something in Kirk, they give him a second try, and when he fails again, he's finally told it was a no-win situation.
Kirk feels cheated when he finds that out. Now VERY frustrated, his superiors try to put a balm on it by saying they admire his very strong desire to succeed. Perhaps he engages them about how a no-win scenario is unfair in his eyes. Perhaphs he keeps it to himself. Either way, he begs for yet another try and they finally relent.
This time, knowing it's no-win, he rigs it to give himself a slim chance to win. It's now a fair test in his eyes. No guarantee of victory, just that slim chance. And he does find a way to succeed.
Perhaps that's what Spock reveals at the hearing, too. That his investigation shows that Kirk did not rig the simulation so he could win, but only so there was a chance to win.
Spock could give some line like, "By my calculations, Lt. Kirk had only a 1.25% chance of beating the scenario as he rewrote it." This would perplex his superiors. Kirk didn't cheat to win? He cheated only to give himself what he thought was a fair and true test? Weird.
Upon rethinking the situation in this light, Kirk is commended for the originality of his idea, his principles, and his thinking.
Later, Kirk could say to Spock, "I thought I gave myself a better chance of winning than that."
A second try at what? Did he pass the test or not? I'm not asking if he 'won' the battle, but whether or not he passed the test. If he passed, it's done. Finished. End of KM for Kirk. It could have easily been explained to him afterwards that winning was not the goal, and was not possible, and that his 'loss' was not due to his efforts (or lack thereof.)
If he failed--twice--that would be the end of Kirk's dream of commanding a starship (IMO). Or does starfleet just let you keep trying until you wear them down?
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Yes. See, Kirk took the test obviously expecting it to be very difficult. But when he learns that even when he does everything right the simulator fails him anyway, he would probably be pissed. He may not know exactly what the reasoning for it is, but he would feel that it's only fair to give himself the option of winning. And what is the harm of it?
Oh noooos he is teh cheetar!! Give me a break. It is CLASSIC Kirk, sticking it to the man.
Rant against Meyer all you want. It's irrelevant, the KM is a fine idea to put in ST11.
Oh noooos he is teh cheetar!! Give me a break. It is CLASSIC Kirk, sticking it to the man.
Rant against Meyer all you want. It's irrelevant, the KM is a fine idea to put in ST11.
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