A Boy's First Canon Freak-Out

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So tonight I'm watching TOS-R with my 12 year old. He's seen the first season of TOS, all of VOY, all of ENT and the first 2 seasons of DS9 (and half the movies and TAS). We're watching "The Changeling". Nomad takes control of the ship and increases the speed to warp 9, warp 10, warp 11..

AND THE KID FREAKS OUT!

"They can't go past warp 10, what about Threshold?! Why was that the threshold in Threshold if they already went to warp 11 in TOS?!"

hahahaha..

So is there any in-universe answer to this one? He was not satisfied with my answer of "VOY ignored this and was in error".

 

[Deckerd]

Have you pointed out that warp anything is fantasy?

 

[SilentP]

Hehehe, poor child doesn't know what he's in for

Wasn't there a change in the warp scales sometime between TOS and TNG? Where in the new scale warp factors referred to speeds higher than the old warp factors?

e.g New Warp 5 > Old Warp 5 etc.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Have you pointed out that warp anything is fantasy?

NO.

geez.

 

[Shawnster]

Despite the failure of the Transwarp Drive project, Starfleet was able to learn much information that improved warp travel. One of those improvements was the rescaling of the warp values. As pointed out above Warp 5 in TNG (and later) is faster than Warp 5 in TOS.

For proof you can show your son the warp speed chart found in the TOS Tech Manual and contrast it with the warp speed chart in the TNG Tech Manual. If you don't have these charts yourself I believe you can find them online.

Of course this rationalization doesn't explain how the Enterprise-D is able to go faster than Warp 10 in "All Good Things."

 

[AdmiralSteven]

Hehehe, poor child doesn't know what he's in for

This is why I shut my brain off and just watch it for the entertainment value. Well, try at least. There have been times when I do critique.

 

[SilentP]

Of course this rationalization doesn't explain how the Enterprise-D is able to go faster than Warp 10 in "All Good Things."

My explanations:

1) Poor way of showing technological advance in the alternate future.

2) Yet another warp scale change, which now ditches Warp 10 as an absolute limit.

 

[Broccoli]

Just tell him the wizard did it.

 

[ChristopherPike]

They moved the goalposts by the 24th Century, as already pointed out. I'm sure the techno types can correct me, but in TOS when Scotty is running around pulling his hair out because the ship isn't supposed to be doing Warp 14, compared to TNG's scale it's doing 9.975 or something. There seems to be an infinite progression of increased speed between Warp 9 and 10.

Their reworked Warp 10 limit would mean you occupy everywhere all at once, presumably in trillions of microscopic pieces...

Fortunately ENT never ran into this nonsense, with the ship barely able to survive doing Warp 5 for any length of time. Which on TNG's scale is probably an even slower speed.

I hope we don't need to get out and push indeed...

 

[KimMH]

Kudos to you for having him watch ST with you. The family who Treks together stays together you know . . .

 

[thedude]

The warp scale was modified (to my knowledge) 3 times within the canon of Trek. One for the movies, once for Excelsior, and once for Next Gen. Somewhere out there is a comparison of the "old" warp scale to the new one... I'd put money on Praetor having it laying around somewhere ;-)

 

[barnaclelapse]

Honestly, I think it's fun to get a little worked up about canon sometimes. Especially if you're with friends. It's usually good for a few laughs.

 

[cwl]

talking of Excelsior why in ST:VI was she returning home from the Beta Quadrant 'under full impulse power'?

 

[Middle Earther]

Tell him that it's an alternate timeline. That always works for me!

 

[blaXXer]

So tonight I'm watching TOS-R with my 12 year old. He's seen the first season of TOS, all of VOY, all of ENT and the first 2 seasons of DS9 (and half the movies and TAS). We're watching "The Changeling". Nomad takes control of the ship and increases the speed to warp 9, warp 10, warp 11..

AND THE KID FREAKS OUT!

"They can't go past warp 10, what about Threshold?! Why was that the threshold in Threshold if they already went to warp 11 in TOS?!"

hahahaha..

So is there any in-universe answer to this one? He was not satisfied with my answer of "VOY ignored this and was in error".

How cute

 

[The Wormhole]

So tonight I'm watching TOS-R with my 12 year old. He's seen the first season of TOS, all of VOY, all of ENT and the first 2 seasons of DS9 (and half the movies and TAS). We're watching "The Changeling". Nomad takes control of the ship and increases the speed to warp 9, warp 10, warp 11..

AND THE KID FREAKS OUT!

"They can't go past warp 10, what about Threshold?! Why was that the threshold in Threshold if they already went to warp 11 in TOS?!"

hahahaha..

So is there any in-universe answer to this one? He was not satisfied with my answer of "VOY ignored this and was in error".

I was 10 when I first saw Threshold and I was equally confused about warp 10 being some kind of unreachable speed, based on times in TOS when warp 10 plus had been achieved. It wasn't until later I learned about the differing warp scale between TOS and modern-day Trek.

 

[FalTorPan]

I still would like to know why the warp scale was redefined. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Because...

I dunno.

The TNG scale seems a bit like a POS, TBH. All the decimals are really ineffecient for information flow between the captain and his officers.

Yelling an order for "warp 13" is easier than yelling "warp 9.7865".

 

[trampledamage]

Because...

I dunno.

The TNG scale seems a bit like a POS, TBH. All the decimals are really ineffecient for information flow between the captain and his officers.

Yelling an order for "warp 13" is easier than yelling "warp 9.7865".

Yeah you'd think if there was going to be a re-org of scales it would have happened in the other direction, that as warp drives got more efficient they would need to open up the numbers to go above the previous maximums.

 

[mythme]

A real answer (as taken from my own personally-written chronology) -

2312
Due to advances in Starship and warp engine design, Starfleet recalibrates the warp scale. Rather than the simple geometric progression based on relative speed used previously, the scale was now based upon the amount of power required to transition from one warp plateau to another. For example, the power to initially get to the recalibrated warp factor one was much more than the power required to maintain it; likewise warp two, three, four, and so on. Those transitional power points rather than observed speed were then assigned the integer warp factors.

For warp factors up to 9, the revised formula became wf = the square root of v over c to the 10power

with v being the speed of the signal or starship[/FONT][/SIZE]

c being the speed of light (3.0 x 10 m/s) and

wf being the resulting warp factor

Or, to calculate speed in terms of c (up to warp 9), the formula would be:

Speed = wf 10/3 c


In this case, warp 1 is equivalent to C (as it was in the 23rd century scale); warp 6 is approximately 393 c. Above warp 9 the exponent was increased above “10/3” exponentially, approaching infinity as the warp factor approaches 10. This new scale would also apply to subspace communication signal speeds.

(Conjecture based partly upon an article written by science consultant Andre Bormanis for the officially licensed “Star Trek: the Magazine”. The 24th century scale was created at the start of “Star Trek: The Next Generation”. Gene Roddenberry stated that he wanted to avoid the ever-increasing warp factors used in the original series to force added tension to the story, and so imposed the limit of warp 10 as infinite speed.)